Why Germany Educates International Students for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#201

Post by woodpanel » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

MichailP wrote: post #112

While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia, where there is even a specialized university for this [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Uni…

Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home? Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing called "marketing"?

If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with > to use the german education system as a proxy for getting a little bit of good PR - not even for your product, just German products in general.

If there's a geopolitical factor involved at all it's inter-cultural relations, which for a country that ruined most of Europe once is a rather good thing.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#202

Post by bmmayer1 » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:13 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #188

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, t…

> I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work

Maybe, but there's also opportunity cost. That's one seat that someone isn't taking, teacher time that isn't going to someone else.

> contribute to the German economy by living there

Yes, but they cost the German economy by being there too. Have you done the math on the tradeoff?

> they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact

How? I have a fond memory for Germany after being a tourist there. Didn't need to cost the state tens of thousands in tuition dollars to do it.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#203

Post by markdown » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:17 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #199

markdown wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?

> do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail? Typically in Germany there is/was a three-tiered system after the 4th class: Hauptschule (5th to 9th year), Realschule (5th to 10th year) and Gymnasium (5th to 12th or 13th year). With a degree at a Hauptschule you can only be…

Sounds complicated. I can see the logic in separating kids into groups of equivalent aptitude.

I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens.

I appreciate you explaining it, thank you.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#204

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:26 PM UTC

ekr wrote: post #126

stable-point wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the key part is "regardless of where they come from". For instance, Scotland has free tuition for the Scottish and other EU citizens, but not for citizens of England/Wales/NI or international students. (The fees for an English person are typically cheaper than other English universities, but still not to be sniffed at). I am not sure about NI or Wales, but I imagine there's a similar situation.

Scotland and free tuition? I was thinking about a MSc in computer science at the University of Edinburgh, and it's definitely not free, even for EU citizens: http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_cod... .

That's a postgraduate course. I guess free tuition applies only to undergraduates.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#205

Post by bisRepetita » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

One argument, not made, is that it may help German students too. Having various nationalities at home expose them to other ways of thinking. And it increases their abilities to deal with them culturally later in life/business.

I do find a parallel, at a completely different scale, with the strategy of Loh, the coach of the US high-school team for the Math Olympiads. An important part of his strategy is to invite his international opponents to train with his team. It is counter intuitive, but he says it makes his team better, and they're less scared of competition. They won twice in a row since.

NYT article: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-201...

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#206

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

faragon wrote: post #157

In my opinion, unless German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English, or they're going to have problems attracting world-class talent. I.e. accepting as "acceptable behavior" people not willing to learn German as a requirement.

> German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English

Let's look at the neighbor countries of Germany and my impressions of their German language skills:

Austria: German is spoken there

Belgium: ?

Czechia: Czechs who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by German history (keyword: Sudetenland))

Denmark: ?

France: French people IMHO are typically neither good at English nor German

Luxembourg: German is one of the languages spoken there

the Netherlands: They typically know German quite well (though they often don't like using this language)

Poland: Poles who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by the German history with the historical expanse of the German Reich)

Switzerland: German is one of the languages spoken there (not that the Swiss would prefer to work in Germany over their own country for obvious reasons)

TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#207

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 2:08 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #203

wolfgke wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail? Typically in Germany there is/was a three-tiered system after the 4th class: Hauptschule (5th to 9th year), Realschule (5th to 10th year) and Gymnasium (5th to 12th or 13th year). With a degree at a Hauptschule you can only be…

Sounds complicated. I can see the logic in separating kids into groups of equivalent aptitude. I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens. I appreciate you explaining it, thank you.

> Sounds complicated.

What mostly makes it very complicated is that education is administered on a federal state level instead of national level - so it is different in each federal state. If I were to describe it for "my" federal state, the description would be simpler.

> I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens.

The most plausible explanation to me is "historical".

But I can assure you that this is/was a hotly disputed political topic. For example in my federal state I think 15 years ago it was decided that this separation should rather be after the 6th year. The result: A giant rush on privately run Gymnasien (German plural of "Gymnasium") that started with the 5th class for the reason that parents feared that their kid doesn't get the educational stimulation "it should deserve" if it has to sit together with "less smart kids" for even two more years.

This state government was unelected in the next election (and this topic played a large role in the election campaigns) and the next state government reintroduced the separation after the 4th year (which I support), but introduced other controversial ideas in the education system (which nevertheless were not of the kind that induces "fears that 'my' kid doesn't get the educational stimulation 'it should deserve'" - so there was no large public outcry).

In short: If a state government wants to replace the two- or three-tiered system by more comprehensive schools or wants to touch the "holy grail" that separation happens after the 4th year, the party will be punished in the next election - these are "very emotional topics", where both sides will fight tooth and nail.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#208

Post by wolfgke » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #155

discordianfish wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. I've fixed it for you.

> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany.

This is also wrong. I would rather say "there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany if you don't know German on a decent level".

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#209

Post by mafribe » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 2:16 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #155

discordianfish wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany. I've fixed it for you.

Where are those highly paid tech jobs in the UK?

Apart form a bit of fin-tech in London, most programming jobs in the UK are quite badly paid and not comparable with US/SV salary levels.

I see what my UK-based students are earning, and it's typically not really above German levels.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#210

Post by mafribe » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #171

ed_balls wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

You can live and work in Berlin without speaking single word of German.

You can, but Berlin is not (yet) where most of the interesting high-tech jobs are. Moreover, if you want an interesting social life, eventually you'll have to learn the local language, there's no way around it.