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How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

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201–210 of 285 posts

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#201
post #13

It was interesting to hear about this, then drive down Rio Grande street or around Pioneer Park and see the massive tent cities and tons of homeless people. Things got really bad downtown the last year or so. I wonder if this is a case of Salt Lake doing such a good job that homeless from other states were attracted here?

Naw, I live right next to there it was worse five years ago but now it's fairly clean. 90% of people 'homeless' are panhandlers but they're not in dire circumstances and have homes.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#202
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not "false facts". We're interested in the change of the metric from year to year. Unless there are other factors gaming the statistics, the change over time is valid and useful.

> Unless there are other factors gaming the statistics Would you not consider people who gave up looking for work because they cannot find employment as unemployed?

I wouldn't expect somebody taking a survey to distinguish between "not looking for work [because X reason that counts as willfully unemployed]" and "not looking for work [because gave up on finding employment]".

We use the numbers and information that we have access to. They're all flawed, they're mostly better than nothing.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general problem isn't convincing people that housing them would be more cost effective, it's that a large portion of the population is worried about incentivizing people to not work. Whether or not that is a valid concern is up for debate, but it's definitely the main driver why programs like this in the US rarely get funded.

Worrying about incentivizing people not to work is one thing, but i think a larger part of that concern is people worrying that somebody else is getting something for free when they have to pay for it. Free-housing programs are seen as unfair by people who have to pay for their housing. If you take half the $16k that gets spent on policing and cleaning up after a homeless person and spend that on providing housing fo…

> a larger part of that concern is people worrying that somebody else is getting something for free when they have to pay for it

There are plenty of examples of politicians making promises of spending now on others in order to gain cost savings down the road. Obamacare was sold to the all-too-eager masses this way. Especially at the county/local level, such cost savings arguments could be made very effectively if there were convincing numbers to back them up. You could also make arguments that public health and land values could benefit from such spending. I'm basically sold purely on a public health argument.

What I take issue with is your abstract line of thinking. First, those who oppose you may not be as shallow (nor ignorant) as you seem to suggest. For example, I would love to see temporary housing, drug treatment, mental health counseling, and job/life-skills counseling to be setup for the homeless. But my local government is so disconnected from reality and are so wholly lacking in priorities that there would never be enough political will to allocate additional budget enough to truly address the problem. So, I oppose you on budget priorities grounds: politicians need to make eliminating homelessness a priority at the expense of some other program - and they could care less about the homeless. The taxes are already too high, and there's a laundry list of bullcrap that the city and county does that could be cut in favor of actually helping those who are in real dire straits.

Second, the environment into which the homeless enter is not a vacuum, and at least local to me, the government had a big hand in creating the current homeless crisis we see (legalized building structures for public overnight camping in the streets.) Coupled with our generous social services that keep people alive, our already bad homelessness problem has metastasized into real human tragedy. So, while I am pained to see what's going on here, I am also deeply skeptical that there is enough wisdom in my local officials to deal with this problem when they were fools at the start and caused it to flare so badly. I oppose you in your thinking that government is capable of solving this problem.

Third, the opinion that additional public services for the homeless become an incentive to remain homeless is a legitimate one regardless of how crisis/fear-minded you are on the subject. The crux of my argument is that dependency robs people of their liberty. The systems we have today for supporting the homeless create dependency and are unjust for that reason. I am in favor of increasing services, housing, and even outright paying people who are homeless to get them out of their situation -- BUT, to get around the dependency issue, there needs to be mandatory work. We need to create a more comfortable life for these people and provide a real possibility to emerge and be self-sustaining. And, at the same time, it has to be UNcomfortable because we expect work out of them. I oppose pure charity to otherwise able-bodied people if that charity will keep those people in their miserable place.

If I were el presidente benevolent dictator, I would make homelessness illegal tomorrow. Along with housing, counseling, and rehab, I would give people who break my law a choice of a few kinds of make-work while they sort their lives out. If they are intractable or fail to show up for their new job, they get sent to the work farm (essentially forced work prison where they get paid real wages) or the military if they are fit enough. For people unable/too sick or those not in their right mind, I would reserve the biggest cash outlays in order to provide comprehensive care for them.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#204
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no realistic (as in adding up mathematically) way that UBI will be cheaper than the social programs of today.

Oh? I won't claim to be an expert (or even close), but it seems to me that remove the vast majority of the overhead of the current web of social programs with a far more simple "Has this person gotten their $X" would free up a bunch of money, even if $X is given to vastly more people. (And I believe that most social programs are relatively efficiently run - those that disagree would consider the benefit of closing th…

It doesn't seem particularly hard to me. You raise taxes slightly to claw back the UBI from people making significantly larger amounts of money.

Actually, how I would implement it is as a refundable tax credit in place of the basic deduction. In other words, if you have no income you receive your full UBI. However, you are taxed on your first dollar of income (rather than getting a tax free threshold as you do today). There is still an incentive to work as you still get to keep 75% (or whatever) of every dollar you earn on top of the basic income, but at some point the amount of tax paid exceeds the amount of UBI received, and you become a net tax payer.

EDIT: The point is that by working the numbers, you can have everyone wind up in roughly the same financial position as today except without the overhead of the various social programs.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The politicians likely remember the scandal from the 1980s of Regular Joes being torn apart by aggressive IRS agents. Saying "hiring more IRS agents brings in more money than they cost" is incredibly gauche to anyone who remembers it.

But bankrupting your govt because some people aren't paying their share is self-defeating. I'm all for oversight to limit the corruption of power, but trying NOT to give power to anyone will just accept that power falls to those that are ruthless and abusive to take it regardless. In this case, those same Regular Joes are getting the short end of the stick because the govt cuts programs to benefit them because wealth…

I'm not sure how much illegal tax evasion happens at the top. The way I look at it you only need tax evasion at lower income levels because of the huge risk associated. Once you have the money you can just buy the tax codes you want.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is being pushed by a subset of the wealthy primarily because it will be a juicy source of rent, in both the economic and colloquial senses. Every cent of UBI will be absorbed by housing costs absent the sort of regulation that would itself make UBI politically untenable (i.e. because it would not benefit the wealthy.)

>Every cent of UBI will be absorbed by housing cost I think you're wrong about that because UBI frees people to go and live anywhere . They won't be trapped in lousy housing one bus-ride from their McJob anymore. The only way housing would suck up the entire UBI is if everyone were trapped in a California situation where new housing was impossible.

I seriously doubt it. While I don't doubt it will aid in some mobility it will not be significant enough to let people simply pull up stakes and move. Plus with dual income families someone always gets the shaft when it comes to commutes.

I think a more likely scenario is companies will pop up who cater to providing the needs of UBI dependents. Think about it, if UBI is enough to cover home and food then you could package these together. Welcome to extended stay from hell.

Lets be real, UBI might protect you from going homeless but that ain't the same as having mobility and choice. With more people participating in the market for housing its going to get tight for awhile and you could end up with more sprawl.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way housing would suck up the entire UBI is if everyone were trapped in a California situation where new housing was impossible. Provided there are no location/COL adjustments.

I think providing location/COL adjustments would be a big mistake for a UBI system. Providing a flat rate encourages people to move to lower-COL places which would reduce the amount of economic activity tied up in rent. It seems to me that adjusting for COL would just reward those who choose to prop up rents and worsen the rent COL cycle.

Indeed, by encouraging people to move to lower cost of living areas, they may actually help prop up the local economy by spending their UBI cheques in otherwise depressed areas.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I'm done debating this with you. You seem to have an unfalisfiable belief that our mediocre health outcomes are due to problems in our general culture. In other words, all of the good outcomes are due to us having the highest quality healthcare, and all of the bad outcomes are due to culture. I disagree. I believe that a) our healthcare system is part of our general culture and b) deficiencies in our healthcare s…

US obesity rate: 36% Swedish obesity rate: 18% US life expectancy: 79 years Sweden life expectancy: 81 years It is falsifiable. When I talk about culture I'm talking about things like smoking rates, obesity rates, etc. These things are totally unrelated to whether or not you pay a copay to go to a doctor. If you think our relative life expectancy has nothing to do with our obesity rates, then I'm sorry but you just d…

I hear ya. I think a healthcare system can affect smoking rates and obesity rates. You disagree.

Likewise, I disagree that "paying a copay to go to a doctor" is really the crux of the issue.

Maybe we'll meet one day by happenstance and have a richer discussion on this complicated topic. Have a good one.

Re: How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness

#210
post #43

Homes for the homeless. What an obvious solution! May I suggest medical care for the sick next? I'm glad some cities are starting to recognize the level of dignity and hope a private residence with private facilities can give to impoverished families. Sadly it appears these types of programs seem to only be funded when wrapped in some questionable marketing or political gain.

Food for the hungry would be a good one too.
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