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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#201

Post by sokoloff »

jganetsk wrote: post #114
DougN7 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think you're trolling. You're zeroing in on phrases and ignoring the principles they explain. And what is a 'healthy way' for prices to change for basic needs? They aren't going to drop. Any other change hurts the poor.

Ok, let's spell it out with a basic example You said we are going to give $12 billion to the poor There is $747 billion of credit card debt in the United States. Much of that comes from lending in the past to the poor to finance their basic needs. $747 billion > $12 billion It is possible that all of 1 year's basic income entirely goes toward paying off credit card debt. In this scenario: 1) The poor receive a much n…

What is the likelihood that all $12BB given to people carrying credit card debt gets spent entirely and solely on reducing that credit card debt?

I think it's about 1 / googol.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#202

Post by rgbrgb »

Tepix wrote: post #4

I'm wondering what effect good virtual reality with a Metaverse as described in Snowcrash and Ready Player One will have on society. There is a potential that a large percentage of people will be happy with their virtual life even if they are poor in real life (as soon as the virtual reality is good enough to spend pretty much all of your time there).

We're already seeing this effect, no goggles necessary:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-video-games-jobs-e...

"Happiness has gone up for this group, despite employment percentages having fallen"

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#203

Post by jjawssd »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #180
jjawssd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans do not trust that the government has their best interests in mind, ergo Americans do not want to have their money taken away from them to pay for government programs.

Like roads, air traffic control, sewers, clean water, etc., etc.?

You mean the roads which are crumbling (http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/road-infrastructure/), congested ATCs (http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/aviation/), and water systems with heavy metal contamination with our drinking water infrastructure nearing the end of its useful life (http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/water-infrastructure...)?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#204

Post by mediaman »

tomp wrote: post #56
bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up? 2) The American housing market is very messed up and far from a free market, so any prediction up or down is very difficult. I predict that Basic Income will cause a bunch of people to move from high cost cities like NYC & SF into low cost areas so that they c…

> inflation is always a monetary phenomenon I don't understand this reasoning. Look, only one of the following can be true: (1) everyone can buy basic necessities of life, in which case nobody is poor and we don't need UBI, or (2) not everyone can buy the basic necessities of life. If (2) is true and we introduce UBI, then there will be more demand for the basic necessities of life (coming from all the people who wer…

This is not the way supply and demand work. If there is a short-term spike in demand, there is a temporary increase in price, which creates profits for suppliers. Increased profits draw more supply. In the medium to long run, price is driven to marginal cost (plus a market return on assets employed), and excess profit is eliminated (again, "excess" meaning that beyond market rates of risk adjusted asset returns).

The idea that food prices would dramatically increase is kind of strange, because it requires that we have no way to increase supply of food production, despite our demonstrable history of doing exactly that through productivity increases. We had less farmland in 2012 than ten years prior, but the value of output doubled during the same time, so supply is in no way constrained.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#205

Post by ako »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different.

In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort.

The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands.

Are these meaningless jobs really better than universal basic income?

At least with UBI people can decide for themselves how they create a meaningful daily activity.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#206

Post by ycmbntrthrwaway »

ako wrote: post #205
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

Creating jobs is one thing, but creating meaningful jobs is something completely different. In communistic days in eastern europe, everyone was employed, but most people had a lousy job, that involved very little effort. The first time i came to the US, i got the same feeling, lots of meaningless jobs (lift boy, parking lot attendant, grocery store bag filler) that i didn't see in the Netherlands. Are these meaningle…

Street promoters make me sad. If they can find no job they better stay at home and learn something new, but they have no time for it, so they are stuck doing useless, maybe even harmful, work.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#207

Post by chriskanan »

dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

I think that's one of the biggest open questions with UBI. What percent of people would use UBI to do productive or self-improving works vs those that solely play video games, watch TV, and feel like life is meaningless? I think psychologically, people need something to do with themselves. However, a counter argument is that many of the people that UBI may benefit the most might have jobs that they loathe.

I'd love to see a review of the impact of work and UBI on human psychological well-being. This is definitely not one-to-one, but it would be interesting to study people that inherited fortunes so they would never need to work. How many chose a life of leisure? For those that did, what is their mental health like? That population is much more privileged and probably better educated than the average citizen that would get UBI, but I think it might give some clues.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#208

Post by gotofritz »

ng12 wrote: post #199
dzink wrote: post #192

During Brexit, people in job-starved areas of UK were reported as resentful for receiving handouts. They wanted gainful employment and their dignity back. You could have corporations foot the bill for basic income and people with certain values would still not want it. The image of being a breadwinner is so deeply instilled in some people that for them not being that, triggers mid-life-crisis: a depression, sense of…

And when they voiced anger about the government accepting immigrants when there already wasn't enough work to go around they got called racist. I think UBI's effect on immigration is an interesting topic and one I don't see discussed in most articles. What does it mean to be a citizen of a country when, statistically speaking, you're a drain on the economy? How does immigration fit into that model? In my mind UBI doe…

> And when they voiced anger about the government accepting immigrants when there already wasn't enough work to go around they got called racist.

That's because the evidence points at them being racists

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#209

Post by old-gregg »

vectorpush wrote: post #108

Almost everyone here seems to be discussing the economic challenges of UBI, but so far I haven't seen much mention of the political challenges. UBI is a completely unworkable concept in the U.S.A and likely many European countries as well. American citizens will be literally shooting eachother in the streets before they accept such a massive wealth redistribution mechanism, and that resistance will be mostly made up…

It's all about the packaging. Politicians are masters of selling any X positioned in a way masses accept it, most popular wrappers make use of keywords like "tax break", "children" or "patriot". The primary obstacle against UBI is that it removes the powerful mechanism of wealth extraction lobbyists frequently use: the tax breaks.

For example, say you're healthcare lobbyist and you want to boost your business selling drug X, but patients who need X cannot afford the amount you want to charge. What do you do? Lower the price? No, you will lobby for making expenses on X tax-deductible. If you succeed, you will be forcefully taking money from people who don't need X, giving them to a person who needs X, who has no choice but give it to you. This has happened with healthcare, education, housing, etc. (and nobody is shooting anyone on the streets)

UBI removes the need for tax breaks, reducing lobbyists' ability to direct consumer spending, and that's why it won't be implemented any time soon.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#210

Post by CuriousCosmic »

PretzelFisch wrote: post #71
josscrowcroft wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively - under UBI - you may decide to work 6 hours per day, and enjoy the earned income in addition to the regular Basic Income payment, all the while knowing that you can leave (or switch employer) any time without fear of destitution.

You would still face the same issue since, you make more money you may have a nicer apartment or house. You would then still be trapped in that job to maintain your chosen lifestyle.

Yes but that is entirely your choice. If you want the freedom to leave a job on a whim then you likely are not going to be spending money on a home that is too expensive to live in without working.
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