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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#201

Post by jgalloway___ »

deanCommie wrote: post #189
Falling3 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is that a meaningful distinction?

It's a betrayal of trust. You know how Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a pig that has been genetically bred to want to be eaten? Like that is it's greatest desire in the world. Dogs have been selectively bred over thousands of years to want to be our friends - to trust us, and to work together as companions. To deliberately kill and eat an animal like that is worse than eating any other.

Not a pig it was (will be?) a cow.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#202

Post by Falling3 »

strken wrote: post #179
Falling3 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is that a meaningful distinction?

I've been thinking about this recently. In a society, people seem to taboo things which indicate a general lack of emotion toward other members of the society. With farm animals, there are social (and religious and legal!) rules around maintenance and slaughter, and farmers deal with large groups of animals, so the relationship between farmer and animal is one-to-many and doesn't leave much room for long term emotion…

I think those are some good observations around explaining the taboo, but I think you'll agree that they're descriptive rather than prospective.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#203

Post by brilliantcode »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #196
brilliantcode wrote: post #192

Well I feel slightly bad for wanting to eat it alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannakji

Woah, it's real-life gagh!

it tastes better than it looks or so I hear. The only concerning point is that people have choked on this while drunk as it sticks to whatever it can latch on to and throat is not the ideal place....need to chew this until it stops squirming....your life may depend on it, more so when you are drunk and think this is hangover food.

This will be one of the first things I will try if and when I am in Korea. I'm not bothered by it since I'm Korean but I can understand the reaction, I'm sure Hindus aren't too thrilled by our cow consumption either.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#204

Post by uhtred »

enugu wrote: post #33
overcast wrote: post #2

Way to make me feel worse about eating them.

Apart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses…

Anyone who thinks animals do not suffer is an idiot. They have nervous system, therefore they feel pain, just like us. They also suffer emotional pain, not just physical. Kill a pig in front of another pig and he/she is going to be terrified.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#205

Post by uhtred »

pacaro wrote: post #78
enugu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses…

In her book "Animals make is human" - Temple Grandin makes the argument (among many others, this is not the main thesis of the book) that we can have a symbiotic relationship with animals, wherein we provide secure food supply, protection from predation and the associated stress, etc. and in return we eat the animal. Factory farming, by contrast has more in common with a parasitic relationship.

I always think of factory farming as a horror story written by a cow in a parallel universe where cows are the dominant life form.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#206

Post by mertd »

noiv wrote: post #198
FreeFull wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also suspect it's a lot harder to advance technologically when you live underwater. One of the big boosts to human evolution was the mastery of fire and development of cooking.

Well, essentially cooking is trying to dissolve food in water - a non existing problem for octopi, mussels taste raw, too!

I have never heard of that reasoning. What's the advantage of dissolving in water? There are other advantages of cooking such as producing shelf stable foodstuffs and increasing the bioavailability of nutrients.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#207

Post by rybosome »

burkaman wrote: post #136
virmundi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because we've found empirically that torture doesn't work. If it did, why not? I know many will not like that conclusion, but again, presuming an amoral universe, and I have little evidence outside of a religious world view that I'm wrong to presume such, there is no right or wrong. You admitted in your first sentence. Comment is helpful in that many people, from all backgrounds, assume that ethics are absolute.…

I doubt most people around here are moral absolutists. I didn't downvote your comment, but it did feel a little irrelevant, in that "ethics are manmade" applies to every situation if you believe it, and no situation if you don't. I'm not sure what you mean by your atheist comment. It is not contradictory to hold strong morals while accepting moral relativism. As long as you accept that there is no objective moral tru…

Well articulated.

The entirety of my atheist morality is centered around the recognition that other humans are as acutely conscious as I am, and inflicting suffering on them (or allowing them to suffer through negligence or inaction) is cruel and distasteful. This is a fancy version of "treat others as you want to be treated", and is rooted in basic human empathy which stretches back millions of years - there is evidence of early hominids surviving years after grievous injuries because they were supported by other hominids.

That I feel this was selected for as an effective strategy to ensure survival rather than laid down by a god does not mean I reject the views or hold them weakly. I see no contradiction in stating that my feelings are a byproduct of biology while still having them.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#208

Post by Johnythree »

donretag wrote: post #122
maxxxxx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having dealt with both I would rate pigs higher in personality than dogs. They are very smart, learn stuff quickly and definitely have individual personalities. I always find it very hypocritical that the same people who have no problem eating pork are outraged over people eating dogs in Asia.

The issue with dogs is that there are no dog farms. All of the dogs eaten are stolen or taken from the street.

> there are no dog farms

Definitely are Asia (Laos and Cambodia, I think)

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#209

Post by enraged_camel »

prodmerc wrote: post #191
enraged_camel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs have co-evolved with humans for tens of thousands of years, and demonstrate traits and behaviors that makes it much easier for humans to empathize and socialize with them. For example, you can tell when a dog is happy because their facial expressions resemble a human smile. Not so with livestock. Sure, you can figure it out after spending time with them, but it's inarguably not the same thing.

No, dogs don't smile. Some learn the baring of teeth as being peaceful instead of defensive, but most of them don't, or rather can't smile. You can find the same exact "smile" in goats, sheep and pigs, they're definitely not making that face because they're happy.

Yes, wrong example. Anyway, science has shown us that human-dog coevolution does have a noticeable impact on the way we interact with dogs. Specifically, sustained eye contact between a human and a familiar dog raises oxytocin levels to increase in both. The same type of relationship has not been demonstrated with other domesticated animals, to my knowledge.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-gaze-from-...

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#210

Post by js2 »

pacaro wrote: post #72
komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

Pedantic mode here: linguistically it should be octopodes (but nobody who isn't speaking Greek would say that); by usage it should be octopuses; octopi or octopii are just wrong (it's not a second declension noun, despite the 'us' ending)

Not quite:

https://youtu.be/wFyY2mK8pxk (Octopus - Merriam-Webster Ask the Editor)

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