Developers’ side projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Developers’ side projects

#201

Post by wfunction » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:01 AM UTC

ImTalking wrote: post #89

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commissio…

> And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release.

How do you force a company to do something like that? What's in it for them to agree, especially when you're leaving?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#202

Post by nedwin » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

KallDrexx wrote: post #55

paulrosenzweig wrote: post #10

I haven't heard about many disputed cases. I'd hope that if Google went around suing for possession of unrelated side projects, we'd hear about it. Maybe the possibility of being publicly shamed is a deterrent from pursing ownership.

A company I worked for (property appraisal company) got acquired by another company. They forced one of the higher up developers out. 6 months later that developer wrote an app dealing with lines at Disney and was making money on ad revenue. The company came after him claiming they owned it because he used skills and knowledge he gained while employed to write that app. We had a "everything you do at any time belongs…

What state was this in?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#203

Post by wfunction » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #136

microcolonel wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically at Google, you must submit work-unrelated open source submissions through Google legal; though they seem to be fairly quick with it.

Google has a painless and usually very fast process for this. It's done on a project by project basis and gives the developer a certain amount of peace of mind. There is a separate process for non OSS work as well. Or at least there was when I was there a couple of years ago.

How often do they give it the OK?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#204

Post by iamcreasy » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:10 AM UTC

How does it affect the side projects(open/closed source) that you were already working on before taking up the new job?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#205

Post by derekp7 » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

Xeoncross wrote: post #54

I've had three companies rewrite or append something about past IP or even current IP on the weekends unrelated to the company, the company's hardware, or the company's time. If you approach it right (sometimes I show them how this limits our ability to work with OpenSource software) you can often swing it. Admittedly, the larger companies are less likely to entertain the request of some new hire. I think more people…

One good way I thought of, is to mention that you volunteer your skills to nonprofits on the weekends / vacation, and that you want to make sure they don't have any legal issues down the road. So if they hand you that form, tell them you need to send it to your lawyer first. Then have your lawyer and their lawyer figure it out.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#206

Post by slmyers » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:29 AM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #139

slmyers wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be damned if I'm going to let my boss tell me if I can write a WordPress plugin on my own time.

He's not suggesting that. He's saying that you can always cover yourself legally starting with a conversation. Hey boss, I'm going to write this wordpress plugin as a side project. I'll be doing on my own time and with my own equipment. I'd like the company to disclaim any right to the code. 9 times out of 10 they will do so. If they don't then you know it's time to polish the resume. As tptacek says elsewhere here.…

Oh, thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#207

Post by morgante » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:31 AM UTC

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

I hope nobody is dissuaded from working on side projects by this post.

First of all, restricting contracts to only work related to the company's business is not unheard of (even outside of California). Every company I've worked at has agreed to that.

Secondly, it ignores the abundant evidence that people successfully turn side projects into businesses all the time without being sued by their ex-employers. In fact, I'd even posit that the median startup is begun while the founder is still working for someone else.

Don't sign draconian contracts and don't be afraid to work on side projects. Be mindful of Joel's bias (he's a CEO, not a developer).

Re: Developers’ side projects

#208

Post by zerkten » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:37 AM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #141

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

"Don't even tell your employer about side projects. Leave them out of the loop entirely." Early in my career I did this. Now I go the exact opposite tack. Tell your employer. Get it cleared in writing. If you work at a company where that is a problem, then consider your side projects non-commercial for perpetuity, or get a new job.

Any tips for the things that should be covered? Do you actually go into a lot of detail, or do you just suggest that the high-level area, and whether it's a commercial endeavor?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#209

Post by snoman » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:40 AM UTC

wfunction wrote: post #203

zaphar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has a painless and usually very fast process for this. It's done on a project by project basis and gives the developer a certain amount of peace of mind. There is a separate process for non OSS work as well. Or at least there was when I was there a couple of years ago.

How often do they give it the OK?

It's directly proportional to how unprofitable they think the idea is. [/snark]

Re: Developers’ side projects

#210

Post by mrottenkolber » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 5:45 AM UTC

udkl wrote: post #116

curiouscat321 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Google so friendly towards them?

It could just be the people that google attracts ? People who are constantly tinkering ... side or hobby projects could well be ingrained in the company culture ....

According to the comments in this thread google expects you to notify them when you hack on things off the job, and feels entitled to deny you those activities. Sounds quite hostile towards creative people. Nightmarish, even.