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U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#201

Post by kbart »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #164
nightski wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the value of adversity is lost sometimes on HN. We should be especially familiar with it. Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Some times a struggle is not a bad thing. Not to the point where one should be homeless or starving of course, but having every…

> Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others. All corporations exist to better the lives…

"A tremendous income generally comes from delivering tremendous value in the world to others"

So, you want to say that Kim Kardashian[0] provides more value to the world per year than ~1230 paramedics[1] combined?

0. http://moneynation.com/kim-kardashian-net-worth/ 1. http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/emergency-medical-...

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#202

Post by Qwertious »

ingenieros wrote: post #140
laretluval wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These fields don't usually/directly translate into a financial success, but they broaden our perspective and deepen our experience. And in doing so provide the tools and language to more effectively analyse and engage with human culture. What concrete evidence leads you to think this is true?

A calligraphy class taught by Robert Palladino in Reed College would go on to have a profound effect on a guy whose name now escapes me. :)

It's Steve Jobs, for anyone who doesn't want to look it up.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#203

Post by Qwertious »

School-Cotton wrote: post #51
chime wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious why we treat student loan debt as being special. Because you can no longer declare bankruptcy to erase student debt. > If your degree of choice is unlikely to yield the kind of return that will pay for it, then you should be required to save up for it, rather than getting a loan, just like there are qualifications for other loans, like auto or mortgages which look at both the value of the asset vs its s…

It's true only the rich could send their kids to art school, but there are lots of things only the rich can do. What makes you define art school in particular as something we should pay for everyone to do, rather than a luxury? Keep in mind that resources are limited -- for a given level of taxation, everything the State spends money on means either cutting something else or increasing the debt (thereby making debt s…

We want to subsidize poor people for art because often the best artists are poor. Hell, it's literally a cliche.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#204

Post by JulianMorrison »

Lazare wrote: post #184
skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#205

Post by chrisseaton »

Lazare wrote: post #184
skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

> Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back

But for the vast majority of jobs people don't care what degree you have! In technology yes you often want someone with a particular degree. But if you're hiring a civil servant, a advertising executive, a business consultant, or any one of hundreds of other jobs, you can have any degree you like.

I have friends with theology degrees who work in business and earn more than I do in technology with my CS PhD. The companies that hire them value having people with a very wide range of academic backgrounds.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#206

Post by charlesdm »

chrisseaton wrote: post #205
Lazare wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

> Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back But for the vast majority of jobs people don't care what degree you have! In technology yes you often want someone with a particular degree. But if you're hiring a civil servant, a advertising executive, a business consultant, or any one of hundreds of other jobs, you can have any degree you…

And that is obviously ridiculous.

> I have friends with theology degrees who work in business and earn more than I do in technology with my CS PhD. The companies that hire them value having people with a very wide range of academic backgrounds.

That has nothing to do with their degree and everything with their ability. They would probably still get hired without the degree.

Degrees only really matter in formal subjects, if you're, say, studying to become a doctor. Attending a good university is not about the degree, it's about the network.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#208

Post by cheiVia0 »

Lazare wrote: post #184
skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

Education should be free.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#209

Post by chronic6l »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204
Lazare wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

> Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

Incorrect. This will foster a culture of inferiority because not everyone is equal. No matter what you do, the lower class will be jealous of the upper class and will always demand for more.

Money and education is solved? What about universal access to entertainment? Universal food? Universal housing?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#210

Post by huxley »

Lazare wrote: post #184
skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

Those aren't facts, they are premises

It is as likely that tying a university degree as the minimum pre-requisite for a decently paying career is driving the price upwards. Increased competition for desirable placements is the classic limited supply high demand scenario.

The problem isn't the availability of loans which are just a side effect but the focus of education as a gate to future success.

BTW from ancient times up until the last couple of centuries, patronage was often the primary income source for artists and scientists, the rich and powerful would subsidize them, offer sinecures to allow them to create, and the patron would get to show how wealthy and sophisticated they were.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage#Arts

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