Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent • Hacker News Board

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#201

Post by roel_v » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #180

kgermino wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does anything on your list stem from owning vs renting? Presumably if you were renting - you would still garden and you or your landlord would still maintain the lawn - your landlord would still maintain the house - you would still be living in the community and therefore motivated to participate in it's government - I don't understand this one at all. Why would a second family suddenly move in if the house was r…

Residential properties usually have short term leases. You have minimal incentive as a tenant to plant flowers, buy shrubs, etc. You have minimal inventive as a landlord to make the house look any more attractive than it needs to be. Landlords don't maintain property to the same standard as an individual homeowner, when they do, they use more efficient service models (ie. a single crew with a single set of tools) to…

None of this is true in Germany, so you're arguing a case on faulty premises (like 'x is true under current law, so we shouldn't change the law because x' - ignoring that a side effect, or maybe even a goal, of changing the law would be to make x not true).

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#202

Post by taurath » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:07 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #69

whack wrote: post #39

The Germans seem to be far ahead of the curve here. From a financial planning perspective, buying a home results in: 1) The vast majority of your assets becoming concentrated in a single plot of land, in a single neighborhood, in a single city 2) Your future mobility to pursue jobs in other cities, becoming significantly constrained If you want to invest your savings, then invest them in the stock/bond markets. If yo…

> Your future mobility to pursue jobs in other cities, becoming significantly constrained Perhaps the idea of people who haven't adopted this is that, unless they like doing so, humans should not have to live like nomads moving here and there to pursue this or that financial opportunity, but instead should be allowed to grow roots in some place, help shape it and improve it, connect with their neighbors, etc.

The way the economy has been for the last decade in the US is that if you're not in a city that is up and coming you're in a town that is rotting, as all the jobs or industry that used to prop up the town are leaving for somewhere cheaper. Because we are being pushed to a new global economy and we have no social safety net, moving places is required just as much as changing jobs is, unless you happen to be in one of the anointed fields that is benefiting from globalization.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#203

Post by nommm-nommm » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

randiantech wrote: post #90

cm2187 wrote: post #5

So in Germany, the interest on a mortgage is non tax deductible. The article doesn't mention it but I understand that property owners are also liable for capital gain tax if they hold the property less than 10 years. I think that makes sense. There is no reason to favor individuals investing into an unproductive investment (property) over productive investments (stocks and bonds, which enable companies to raise money…

So are you recommending to invest savings on stocks and bonds rather than a house? I mean, I wont argue / refute you reasoning, I just simply dont have the knowledge to do a proper analysis. Ill just say that my 78 years old parents, that not even finished high school, always told me to first buy a house, then think about the rest. Being an owner feels like the best decision Ive ever made. If something happens to me,…

>I have the safety that my family have a place to live in.

Unless your family can't afford maintenance, upkeep, insurance, and taxes.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#204

Post by jpetso » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:19 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #169

aianus wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes ten minutes to earn $10 doing software engineering. In no universe am I cooking a better meal in less time.

If you strictly want to maximize your money , you're probably making the best choice for yourself. For many of us, time with family, friends, hobbies, is a relaxing and physically/mentally/emotionally healthy thing to engage in, rather than trying to exploit every waking hour for income.

You're not wrong, however the parent was specifically replying to a post that justified home cooking with financial considerations and didn't even go into the quality-of-life aspect at all.

I think the takeaway is that if you prefer coding over cooking then that's justifiable from a financial and time efficiency point of view. If you prefer cooking and the presumed family quality time over (even more) coding then that's also very reasonable.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#205

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:19 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #64

LeanderK wrote: post #29

I am a German CS-Student and currently renting in a shared flat with 4 other students. We call it WG (living-community) and its really popular not only with students, but i know a lot of young professionals and even middle aged ones that share an apartment (it gained popularity in the 60s, so i think its more of an culture thing that older do not share a flat). If you are in a partnership, you can move out and share…

> Serious question: Why is it not very popular in other countries? Because some countries have much, much worse tenants rights. I moved from Ireland to Germany and in Ireland: * There is basically no protection for rent increases, some people are being told their rent is increasing by 50% * Can't change your apartment. Not allowed to paint the walls, nearly all come with furniture, better make sure you don't damage a…

[deleted]

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#206

Post by alistairSH » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #112

camiller wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For property you still have ongoing maintenance to pay for, and real estate agents, and the title company, etc. so there are jobs created due to the buying, selling, and ownership of property. If I by 100 shares of IBM in my self-directed account at Charles Schwab there likely isn't a single human being involved in that transaction after I click the buy button. Granted, somebody wrote the code that drives all of that…

But this maintenance would happen anyway whether you own or rent.

At a much slower rate.

If the paint in my personal home starts peeling, my incentive to fix it is higher - I don't want to walk down the hall and see peeling paint.

If the paint in a corporate-owned tenement starts leaking, what incentive does the corporation have to repair it? They will do the bare minimum to prevent me suing them for breach of contract. A tenant is unlikely to sue over peeling paint. And they actively discouraged from re-painting, as they will likely lose their security deposit should they paint in any color other than generic off-white.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#207

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

camiller wrote: post #65

cm2187 wrote: post #5

So in Germany, the interest on a mortgage is non tax deductible. The article doesn't mention it but I understand that property owners are also liable for capital gain tax if they hold the property less than 10 years. I think that makes sense. There is no reason to favor individuals investing into an unproductive investment (property) over productive investments (stocks and bonds, which enable companies to raise money…

Buying stock on the open market also doesn't create any job for anyone, it just transfers wealth to the hands of the seller. Basically, unless you are investing in an IPO, the company doesn't see a dime from the ongoing trading of it's stock. So the vast majority of investors are not creating jobs by buying stock. Similarly, most bond investors are not buying new issue bonds, they are buying bonds from the current ow…

[deleted]

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#208

Post by Kalium » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #199

Kalium wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are allowed to grow roots, shape and improve a place, and connect with their neighbors all they like. This is the state of places like the USA today. People aren't allowed to demand that the economy provide them with all the means they might wish for to do these things in any arbitrarily selected location.

> People are allowed to grow roots, shape and improve a place, and connect with their neighbors all they like. Well, their landlord may disagree. That is, if they are renting... what is what this discussion is about.

That's covered under the second point.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#209

Post by Retric » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #189

Retric wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing home ownership lowers economic growth. People tend to move jobs less often and have longer commutes both of which reduces economic efficiency. People also tend to rent places which more closely match their needs further reducing waste. AKA, renting and there is no need for a kids room until you have kids, but when buying you may need to plan for your needs in 5+ years out. Further, people really do rent th…

Source? Housing has driven US GDP growth since WW2 or earlier, so that's a pretty big leap.

Housing != home ownership. Anyway, I have read this a few places, but here is the first link I found. "Regions with higher home ownership created fewer new businesses, had longer commute times, and lower rates of labor mobility." http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/08/the-deep-do...

Further, GDP is a very short term view of the economy. Daycare is a classic example where going from an informal to formal system nominally increases GDP much more than the net increase in value.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#210

Post by Jtsummers » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

jpetso wrote: post #204

Jtsummers wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you strictly want to maximize your money , you're probably making the best choice for yourself. For many of us, time with family, friends, hobbies, is a relaxing and physically/mentally/emotionally healthy thing to engage in, rather than trying to exploit every waking hour for income.

You're not wrong, however the parent was specifically replying to a post that justified home cooking with financial considerations and didn't even go into the quality-of-life aspect at all. I think the takeaway is that if you prefer coding over cooking then that's justifiable from a financial and time efficiency point of view. If you prefer cooking and the presumed family quality time over (even more) coding then tha…

Unless you're spending all your waking hours maximally, the time savings of not-cooking versus cooking is not a well-considered trade off in the GPs post.

Just the transit time for a meal out is already going to cost them a great deal more productive time than cooking would. They don't mention Soylent or frozen meals, which are really the only viable way to spend your time more productively than either meal prep or eating out.