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Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

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Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#201
Not fluent yet but seeing excellent progress in my three years of strict self study. I think the most important things I learned are:

- Make a habit of the language. If you can't move to another country to immerse yourself, the least you can do is expose yourself to it everyday. Obviously the more time you can devote, the fast you will progress, but you must devote time. Every. Single. Day. Whether it's a little bit of reading, a conversation with a native speaker, watching a show. Just make sure to reflect on what you learned. Do not be passive. Learning by osmosis is not good enough.

- Do not be afraid to make mistakes. I have been learning for three years and only in the past few months have I jumped this hurdle. In the past, I rarely spoke to anyone in my language, for fear of messing up. I noticed my progress wasn't plateauing and knew something had to change. Now I just try to speak freely. If it's wrong or unnatural sounding, someone lets me know and now I have learned something. It's true that when you make mistakes, you learn more.

These things may seem obvious or simple, but I think you kind of have to take a child's approach - just have fun, don't think to0 hard, and be open minded.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#202

There is no substitute for living in the country and avoiding your native speakers like the plague. Immerse yourself completely (take a few language courses, move in with locals, make an effort to avoid English speakers at all costs). Give yourself little challenges: Groceries, info about the train, museum, read a leaflet, book an activity, ask questions at a restaurant (even if you don't quite get the answer)... Peo…

Another, slightly unconventional way (which is how I learned English as a native Croatian speaker), is to find an online community about something you really enjoy. For me it was the combination of Harry Potter and online roleplaying[1]. I know that English isn't quite the same as other languages as it's quite widespread, but I believe it's possible to do the same for other languages. I also improved my Spanish a lit…

This is how I learned english. I fell in love with computers at an early age and everything from programs to documentation and the few communities were all in english. So I had to learn. I winged it at the time, just used a dictionary, some books, and whatever other resource that I found or fell on my lap.

I used to tell everyone who cared to listen that learning english would open up your world like you can't imagine (as it did for me). How many people even tried? 0. The common denominator is having to learn, and the only two ways that I've seen really work, is moving to another country OR having a strong interest about something and using a language to learn more about it (and you'll learn two things at once!).

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes tinder is a real word. It's material used to kindle a fire. Silicon valley has ruined all these words. Then again, most people don't have to start fires.

Well the way I learned it, you kindle fires by igniting the kindling . The kindling then ignites tinder (an intermediate stage), which then ignites the real fuel. But I also often hear the two-step usage where tinder is includes kindling.

To me it's just the opposite. It's why the concept of a tinderbox makes sense (it contains grass or paper or something else easily ignited by a spark or small fire).

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#204
OVERVIEW: - The "One(ish) Metric That Matters" - Daily routines - How long it takes

- OMTM:

The ONE statistic that correlates the most with moving the needle from complete beginner to high level proficiency with the language is 'Hours of Conversation w/ a native speaker'. Everything you do, and every tool you use should help increase that particular stat.

You learn vocab at the beginning to help yourself extend a conversation from a 1 second 'Hello' to a 10 second 'Hello, what do you do for fun?' + response. You work on listening so that when the person responds you can extend the conversation a few seconds further because you understood what they said.

The One(ISH) part of this metric is that you will notice that as your overall 'Total Hours of Conversation' increases, the average 'length' of each of your conversation does as well. The only way you'll be able to realistically increase your hours of conversation is to move from 10 seconds exchanges to longer conversations.

At the beginning, all efforts can be judged by their merit on how much they add to your time talking. Because of this, I strongly suggest picking ONE topic and ONE specific type of person to speak with, because learning to speak at length and in depth about soccer or programming or food with a friend adds to your 'Hours of Conversation' metric much faster than dabbling in all three.

This is why the Mormon church is able to consistently churn out fluent speakers of second languages in only a few months, because they have one kind of conversation (religious) with one type of person (prospective convert) over and over and over. Their 'hours of conversation' metric is through the roof.

As a side note, this is what people actually mean when they say 'immersion'. They mean 'hours of conversation'. It's why you can learn a second language fluently equally as well from living in the country as staying in your home country. Living in a different country just makes it easier to find people to talk with.

- Daily Routines: Every day, attempt to speak to a native speaker or speakers for a combined total of 1 hour. Every day, write, memorize, and include in conversation...

* 5 new vocab words * 3 new phrases * 1 new story

It helps to keep these related to each other. Here would be a good set of those if you were a beginning English speaker

5 Words: house, clean, messy, friends, party 3 Phrases: I need to clean the house. I am going to the party. I want to invite my friends. 1 Story: Last year, my friends said they wanted to have a party. I said that we could have the party at my house. So I cleaned the house for the whole day to get ready. Lots of people came, and we had fun. At the end of the party, my house was really messy.

Stories aren't typically very long, but as you get better, you can add more detail.

- How long does it take:

Every day you need to do the 5-3-1 practice, and aim to have 1 hour of talk time with a native speaker.

At first, your talk time will be excruciating: How do you fill an hour of conversation with only a handful of vocab words? The short answer is "you can't", but early on you can do something like learn the phrase 'what do you like to do?', combined with the day's vocab can take you to 'what does your brother like to do?', 'what does your mom like to do', 'what does your best friend like to do'. You can repeat those questions to several different people to try to get your 'Conversation Hours' as high as reasonable. Don't be bummed out if at the beginning you are struggling to put in only more than a few minutes. You'll get it. Try to make the next days conversations a little bit longer.

But, if you make it to the 90 day mark, and you have been diligent about your study efforts, it means that you have AT LEAST 90 stories, 270 phrases and at least 450 vocab words, and you will have dozens of hours of practice speaking.

Once you've arrived at that point, you will experience something magical: On day 91, go speak with a new native speaker you haven't spoken with yet, and they will (almost without fail) ask you 'how long have you been learning ?' and when you respond '3 months', you will get your very first 'HOLY , that's incredible! You sound like you've been speaking for at least a year! Maybe 2!' and you will fill with pride and think to yourself 'Yeah! I am doing really wel... HOLY I understood when that guy complimented me and I didn't even realize it wasn't in English!'

That burst of pride and excitement will be enough to carry you from working proficiency to fluent. The hardest part is convincing yourself that you are a 'language learner', and once you experience the above and realize that you are, the rest of the journey is easy.

Best of luck!

Source: My brothers and I are all former Mormon missionaries who learned second languages and were put in charge of helping along other new missionaries learn the language. My brothers learned while they were in Uruguay and Spain, I learned in suburbia, USA.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#205
I'm probably the only guy who is going to tell you that practice is the problem. The more you try, the more "ceiling" you'll create for yourself.

If this sounds interesting do some research on Dr J. Marvin Brown. His autobiography is available online. You might also be interested in looking up Dr Stephen Krashen.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#207
Short Answer: I tried to talk to people everyday and took lots of notes. It took 3 years before I was reasonably fluent and started teaching the language to other foreigners.

Long Answer: Here's how I learned to speak Thai as my 2nd language.

I moved to Thailand in 2003. I had very little experience with any type of successful language learning. I had 2 years of high school Spanish which means I could ask where the bathroom is and knew the difference between "dog" and "but." I didn't know any Thai when I got on the plane to fly there. I bought a phrasebook the day I left and tried to learn the numbers and a few basic phrases on the flight.

I improved a tiny bit each day. Every day people told me how great my Thai was. It's a nice motivator for a while. I made some half-hearted attempts to learn the script, but I never really understood how the tone system worked nor did I have any clue that there were multiple ways to say a P sound and that this was actually crucial to being able to speak well. After 1 month, I did a visa run to Laos where I used my "awesome" Thai to help some other travellers haggle prices and kept us from getting ripped off and also just helped connect with regular people who couldn't speak English.

The next major event was a couple of months later when I got a job and ended up moving to another city halfway between Bangkok and Chiang Mai. I left Chiang Mai thinking I was pretty fluent in Thai, but I quickly discovered I was very wrong. In the new city, I struggled to understand what anybody was saying and I was having to repeat myself all the time wondering what was wrong with everybody. I eventually accepted the fact that it was me rather than everyone else which was the problem. I also had no idea how to fix it. The people I worked with tried to be helpful, but they couldn’t really explain what I was doing wrong.

At the end of the year, I moved back to Chiang Mai and started studying at an university there in order to get a visa and take some Japanese classes. While studying at a Thai friend’s house for final exams, I noticed a large black book about Thai language that I had never seen or heard of before. I believe it was written in the 50s for ambassadors and other foreigners who were in Thailand and included things like how to talk to their servants as well as sample writings from both educated and uneducated people. I photocopied the book and went through it over the coming weeks. The book broke down the entire sound script, sound system and tone rules. It wasn’t well laid out and I could write a mile long list of things I didn’t like about it, but it was the first comprehensive explanation I had come across.

I spent about 6 weeks studying and drilling all the exercises and eventually remapped them so they were more useful. I have almost no attention span so I would do very short study sessions a few times a day. A session wouldn’t usually last more than 5 minutes and might be as short as 1-2 minutes. I remember the day when everything clicked. Words that I used to mix up because I thought they sounded similar were suddenly so clearly different that I couldn’t believe I had ever mixed them up in the first place. I knew the tone system so well that when I pronounced something with the wrong tone, alarm bells would go off in my head “That can’t be a low tone because it’s spelled with a low class consonant!” and I would instantly self-correct.

This all happened very fast and my fluency level just skyrocketed at this point because once I learned how to say things correctly, it became easy to hear them when others spoke. I still wasn’t fluent, I still made mistakes, but I gradually fixed any pronunciation mistakes I had been making. Every single effort I made to learn Thai up until that point was always severely hindered by the fact that I did not have a solid grasp of the sound system.

Once I was comfortable with the script, if I encountered a new word, I could just jot it down in a little notepad I always carried and I could look it up later. Even if I didn’t know exactly how to spell something, I could at least write it out phonetically and then ask people what the correct spelling was. If I tried to say something and I got a weird reaction, I’d write down what I said and ask 4-5 of Thai speakers (never ask just 1!) how I should have said it. That meant that next time it came up, even if I had forgotten the new sentence, I could look it up because it was in my pocket. I’d fill up one of those notebooks every month or 2 and I believe I retained about half of whatever went inside them.

I believe that there are a few key steps that you can follow to make significant progress in the first 1-3 months of learning a language: Getting Started with a New Language:

Step 1) Learn the sound system

Actually spend a few days learning how to say the sounds properly. How much time will depend on the language This can go a lot faster if you find someone who can explain things like where exactly your tongue is supposed to be to say a particular sound. Non-native speakers who speak a language really well tend to be more helpful than native speakers for this.

Step 2)Learn short, high-frequency sentences and/or dialogues

Make or find a list of sentences/dialoges and learn to say them correctly and as you get more comfortable. Start slow and practice saying them faster until you can call them up automatically. When you have 20 or 25 of the right sentences, you will then have enough ammunition to start faking a conversation.

Step 3) Talk to people as often as possible Even if you have just 2 or 3 sentences, you can already go out there and blast them off at people and see where it leads. It’s fun and the stuff you learn putting these into practice is far more likely to stick because it happened in a real life with another human. You may need to hear some things 10 or 20 times before you really get it and that’s perfectly normal. If you are paying attention and keep hearing something over and over, you’ll remember it eventually. Some stuff will slip in even when you aren’t paying attention. If you aren’t in the country, practice on your pets or your friends, but since it's 2016 and you can fly across the world for under $1000, there's really no excuse to not go there. If you really can't go, then use sites like italki.com and hire private tutors. If you don't have money, do language exchanges.

Avoid word lists in the beginning. Knowing how to say “Are you going?” quickly and with good rhythm and pronunciation has far more value to a beginner than “purple, aunt, cloudy, bird” or “ shoes.” Once you have structure and sounds, taking on new words is much easier. I focus on drilling sentence patterns rather than memorizing grammar rules.

Ideal sentences/dialogues will look like this: The shorter and more colloquial, the better. E.g., A: What'd you do yesterday? B: I saw a movie. A: How was it? B: Not bad.

It’s generally ok to take some of those initial sentences from courses like Teach Yourself and Assimil if that’s all you have available, but I’d definitely put off learning anything you can’t imagine yourself saying today or tomorrow. I created a list of sentences for my students a number of years ago which you may find useful. Feel free to copy and modify. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19OQdDLq9MBoGpPy9I7rB....

It’s worth noting that while in Thailand I took years of classes each in Chinese, Japanese and Korean. While I eventually learned to speak all 3 of them as well, I have never reached a level of fluency anywhere close to what I did with Thai. I even 2 spent solid years totally immersed myself in Japanese (using AJATT mentioned below). I had headphones in my ears blasting Japanese whenever I wasn’t talking to someone. I watched The Matrix, Shawshank Redemption and more dubbed in Japanese hundreds of times. I'd rip the audio, shuffle the scenes and listen to them when I slept, walked or exercised. I read piles of manga and novels translated from English. It turned out that none of that was a substitute for actually talking to people everyday like what I did with Thai. You need to be trying to talk to as many people as possible for an extended period of time in order to achieve any real semblance of fluency.

3 years after arriving in Thailand I started to teach Thai to a couple of friends. It worked great, and over the course of teaching a couple hundred people, I developed and tweaked a new more efficient approach to learning Thai. This is only important here because this is how I ended up teaching Thai and it worked so well that it changed the way I learned as well. Less steps, more sentences, no memorizing word lists. And for the sake of credibility, here’s a video of me speaking Thai in 2009, nearly 6 years after I got to Thailand. I was pretty camera shy, but it’s a general idea of what I was capable of at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgzXuHmO_HY

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