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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 300 posts

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#201
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

Yes, mechanics to build the machines to repair them in a fully automatic fashion. For a thought experiment on this, check out http://thelightsinthetunnel.com/ which explores the idea that eventually humans will stop inventing because we'll have everything we need

The assembly process is becoming more and more automated. Some newer cars need to be taken to licensed mechanics, essentially squeezing independent mechanics out of the market.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the non-working are the poor. 60% of the poor don't work at all, and 89% don't work full time. See table 3. http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication... Are you claiming that there are more than 15.6 million non-working rich people? What do you mean by "rich"? Also, 45% of poor people own their own home. Who is evicting them, the taxman? http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf Lastl…

60% of the poor don't collect income reportable on a w2 form. That does not mean they do not engage in productive activities that produce cash. There is a huge informal cash and barter economy of legal goods, and another one for illegal goods. And yes, the tax man will sell your home out from under you in a tax sale if you do not pay property taxes for long enough. All of us live under a sword of damocles in regards…

So you're saying that we overestimate poverty because the poor engage in extensive tax evasion/disability/welfare/unemployment fraud? And that if we properly tracked work activities by the poor, that poverty would be a much smaller problem than it really is?

Good to know. How large do you think this problem is?

I define rich as those who have sufficient wealth in financial instruments and assets such as treasury bonds and equities to pay for their lifestyle without the need to collect 1099 or w2 income.

Numbers please. How many such people are there?

What percentage of the 15.6 million officially non-working poor do you believe are actually committing tax/disability/welfare/unemployment fraud?

Now lets compare the numbers.

They are the only ones who truly do not work, the only ones who can truly sit back and relax. They are the real loafers, the true moochers, and the laziest of all classes of society...

So a person who produces X resources in year 1 and 0 resources in year 2, but consumes X/2 in both year 1 and 2 is a moocher? Um, ok. That's an interesting definition, to say the least.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#203
This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved.

The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so since the beginning. The less intelligent either end up in a position where their labor can be exploited, or they're left to slow decline or even death, depending on how much society values keeping them alive.

That's any given society, in a nutshell. They may dress it up in value statements, laws, philosophies, religions, and so on, but in the end it comes down to power, and who has enough of it to extract the resources and status he wants.

The difference is that now the "menial" jobs are almost gone, and the higher up jobs are on the chopping block. And so the first to die off will be those without power (as usual). We can come up with all sorts of platitudes about the value of human life, but in the end it always comes down to this. Welcome to the true nature of man.

Of course, nowadays we have middle class folks who can experience the philosophical angst of the less fortunate, and come up with all sorts of rules, decide which words are acceptable or not, and police outward appearances and speech.

You wouldn't think twice in deciding what to call someone who implemented a password policy with a max of 8 characters, or stored the passwords unsalted or even plaintext behind a system that hasn't had a security update in 10 years. But soon you will, because "stupid" is not an acceptable word anymore, nor is any word that compares intelligence or ability. We're all equal, after all, and that person deserves his job and the income it generates by virtue of his being human and equal to every other human. You wouldn't want him to starve now, would you?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#204
post #176
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everybody talking as if the communist experiment wasn't already tried? If you forcibly remove "freedom" to keep the fruit of your labor, you'll get general misery and poverty. It's false that "things will be done but slowly", the reality is that things will not get done at all, meaning lack of everything and the distribution of misery. For real examples look into any communist country. https://www.youtube.com/…

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

Nordic countries have an ace up their sleeve that the United States does not: ethnic homogeneity.

To acknowledge the elephant in the room, political discussion of government support policies always comes with a racial dog whistle. The subtext is that the government wants to take your money and give it to those people. It sometimes bubbles to the surface, such as with Reagan's welfare queen in a Cadillac comments, but it is almost never mentioned explicitly.

Before the United States can implement serious welfare reform, including U.B.I., we must solve this nation's racial integration problem.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shut the fuck up! The hivemind is speaking . Non-neoliberal perspectives are terrible and advocacy for them will be punished by context-free links and downvotes.

There is a very vigorous balance between liberal and libertarian views on HN, and both sides tend to (mostly) strive toward thoughtful discussion. Please take this sort of thing to Reddit where it belongs.

Oh please. "DAE COMMUNISM EEEVVIIILL?! (oh I brought links to PROVE it; here's Robin Williams and a wiki about a book)" is thoughtful discussion, eh? It's the same kind of mindless upvotery as your appeal to HN's ostensibly high standard.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere.…

Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill. We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this. Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www…

Have you lived in Western style poverty? Have you mingled with those who patronize pawn shops and payday lenders?

Please cite the various randomized control trials, and I would say it is far too early to draw conclusions on the effects of the medicaid expansion as it has only been two full years since rollout.

I speak from experience, as someone from a wealthy family and a wealthy area that shunned the family business and went out with nothing to seek startup fortune. I had a good start in 2009 with a success in affiliate marketing, when that dried up I put all that I had made into another venture that limped along at sub-ramen levels for a while and then I pulled the plug.

The fallout was not fun, and the effects not benign. It was pre medicaid expansion and there was no healthcare to be had, and almost no safety net to be found whatsoever.

I could have gone home and had everything I needed but I wanted to make it on my own. I had been living in Boulder, Colorado and thought a move to Austin would lower expenses and extend the runway for the company.

That was ill-advised, and another story, but it added another dimension to my troubles at the time.

Was it a stupid risk? It was but I was young and felt invincible, and in 2010 with a liberal arts education there weren't a ton of jobs waiting for me.

The wealth transfers you speak of are not easy to get. I'm not even sure where you get the 15-20k number. What else is there for a low earning single male besides SNAP, and now Medicaid.

In that time, as someone who found themselves with no assets and no income the only benefit I seemed to have qualified for was about $160 a month that could be spent at the grocery store.

Feeling a tremendous amount of shame I applied for SNAP benefits, even though I knew that they were really a subsidy for American farmers, ideology had trained me that subsidies for corporations are virtuous, while subsidies for basic human needs are shameful.

Even though I qualified, the overworked staff denied my valid claim. It took them over a month to tell me this. It would have taken another month to apply again and maybe they would get it right that time. I gave up and having good credit financed my nutrition via credit card.

I hadn't coded since elementary school, but I was able to pick up django web dev and find a high paying job in a couple months.

But that happy ending is not typical. There is no way that the stress from that period didn't shave a little bit of time off my life.

And the lack of liquidity prolonged the period by a good bit. I spent so much time doing this or that to get $200 for the rent, it was tremendously inefficient and stressful. Bad terrible memories, a place I never want to go back to. I was sad during all of this. It broke up the relationship I was in with someone I really loved.

I spent a lot of time with those who ride the bus, with those who pawn. Their lives are very different than the lives of the families from my coastal home town. Their lives do kill them slowly, which is why life expectancy is a full dozen years longer for the wealthy.

I have since moved back to the wealthy coastal town I grew up in. Life is so easy here, because there is wealth here. You can get a nice boat for almost nothing because someone just doesn't want it anymore.

Someone I knew was just gifted a boat for $1 because the owner was just happy it was going to stay on the island.

No one ever gives my former bus riding compatriots anything.

The thing is the people that live here are no different genetically than the people at the pawn shops back in Texas. The only difference is the presence of wealth, and the virtuous effects that has when it's sustained for a few generations.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#207
There are two rather egregious flaws in this line of thinking from the very start.

The first is that "intelligence" is purely an inborn trait. That "being stupid" is a condition on par with serious mental disability. Stupidity isn't mocked by the smart to belittle the dumb. It's mocked by the majority of society to promote feelings of superiority in the mockery yes, but also to share lessons about what not to do.

Anyone (barring mental disability, and even then) can learn, and can be taught. I've certainly encountered my share of the intelligentsia too brilliant to lower themselves to the common level, but I've encountered far many more gifted people who wanted deeply to share their knowledge with those around them. Yes, our society fetishises intelligence, but the vast teeming masses of "dumb people" are a lot smarter than most would believe.

The second fallacy here is that financial earning or being able to survive at all are somehow connected to "human worth" which is connected to intelligence. As we automate more and more fields of labor, we are moving towards a post-job society. The issue isn't that Americans over value intelligence, it's that we over value the concept of "hard work." Especially as enshrined in the old advice of many parents, "you have to work hard to get ahead in the world."

Well, no, you don't. Working smart helps a lot, but soon you won't have to work at all. Or you won't be able to. Forget our negative perception of "the dumb." We need to fix our negative perception of "the lazy." We must learn how to value people for something beyond their contributions to labor, and maybe we must also teach people how to have and feel valuable beyond labor.

And we should do it fast, because after we automate away the drivers, the merchants, and the laborers, it won't be long before we've automated away the lawyers, artists, programmers, and doctors. And then there will be nothing left but politicians, and is that the world you want to live in?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#208
post #176
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everybody talking as if the communist experiment wasn't already tried? If you forcibly remove "freedom" to keep the fruit of your labor, you'll get general misery and poverty. It's false that "things will be done but slowly", the reality is that things will not get done at all, meaning lack of everything and the distribution of misery. For real examples look into any communist country. https://www.youtube.com/…

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

They are social democracies with a relatively high degree of market freedom.

If communism is to have any sort of meaning, it doesn't apply to them.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#209
post #204
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

Nordic countries have an ace up their sleeve that the United States does not: ethnic homogeneity. To acknowledge the elephant in the room, political discussion of government support policies always comes with a racial dog whistle. The subtext is that the government wants to take your money and give it to those people. It sometimes bubbles to the surface, such as with Reagan's welfare queen in a Cadillac comments, but…

Though I think UBI can be implemented before or in tandem with fixing our racial issues, here's a quote to expound on this. The Southern Strategy utilized this tactic significantly. From an interview with Lee Atwater[0]:

> All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 . . . and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster...

> You start out in 1954 by saying, "N-----, n-----, n-----." By 1968 you can't say "n-----" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N-----, n-----."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy#Evolution_.2...

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60% of the poor don't collect income reportable on a w2 form. That does not mean they do not engage in productive activities that produce cash. There is a huge informal cash and barter economy of legal goods, and another one for illegal goods. And yes, the tax man will sell your home out from under you in a tax sale if you do not pay property taxes for long enough. All of us live under a sword of damocles in regards…

So you're saying that we overestimate poverty because the poor engage in extensive tax evasion/disability/welfare/unemployment fraud? And that if we properly tracked work activities by the poor, that poverty would be a much smaller problem than it really is? Good to know. How large do you think this problem is? I define rich as those who have sufficient wealth in financial instruments and assets such as treasury bond…

> So you're saying that we overestimate poverty because the poor engage in extensive tax evasion/disability/welfare/unemployment fraud? And that if we properly tracked work activities by the poor, that poverty would be a much smaller problem than it really is?

No, Im saying that almost all poor people work, they have various hustles to get by. Most of them are not illegal activities, but yes for the most part these are untaxed cash transactions.

Even the homeless man on the corner with a sign is engaged in a form of work, as it is an active process that takes time, and if they did not do it, they would not have money.

Is it productive, no not very, but the good ones provide entertainment in the form of funny signs, stories or puns. I have donated to quite a few who made me smile on my trip across America.

It does less harm than many respectable professions.

And yes, if you are living off the dividend payments from S&P 500 companies that you neither created, work in nor manage, you are mooching.

It's a respectable mooch, for sure, but a mooch none the less.

What else can we call Sam Waltons heirs other than epic mooches?

Tens of thousands of people toil everday for them, all over the world. They have expert MBA's manage the entire operation for them. The pharoahs themselves didn't have such a great system of exploitation of labor.

My main point in all of this is to be aware of class biases in our perception, and the ideology that comes from, and mainly that we should stop beating up on the poor and scolding them.

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