Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#201

Post by tveita » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #167

i do not think these concerns are legitimate any longer. if internet security was impossible then my bank account (along with others) would have been hacked long ago. everybody banks online. this is just conservative backlash. the real problem with elections is that a lot of people do not bother to vote, which put the legitimacy of the elections into question. online elections can help solve that.

When a bank is hacked, millions of dollars go missing. Police is called in, investigations are launched.

When an election is hacked, a plausible candidate gets some extra votes in their favor, tipping the election. Billions of dollars get spent on dubious but not technically illegal contracts. People shrug and say "Well I didn't vote for them."

I'm sure an rigged electronic election would leave traces like any crime, but there is no smoking gun and no body. If done right you would have little basis to demand an investigation.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#202

Post by Natanael_L » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

thegp wrote: post #159

Natanael_L wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure multiparty computation. You trust that the right software runs, because unless multiple mutually distrusting parties runs the EXACT SAME software in the same configuration, nothing will happen at all - and they'll hopefully never agree to collude on running anything but the officially agreed upon version. https://roamingaroundatrandom.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/an-mp...

So who do you trust enough to be distrusting parties? This to me seems to be the same problem as making it proof of work: if the incentives are big enough, the scheme collapses. Look at the creativity that lead to caging and other forms of voter suppression

Not sure. I did consider the risk of bureaucracies becoming cemented within the participating organizations, leading to a harmful drift in values.

But you really only need each department to live for as long as the vote is active, so you can dismantle them and reassemble them afterwards each time. Hopefully that would prevent the establishment of dangerous practices and attitudes.

Whoever is managing it must be held accountable, and must work in full transparency.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#203

Post by drdeadringer » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #183

Tom Scott has done a very good video on the dangers of e-voting [1]. Good watching for me and also entirely suitable for my mum. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

I've watched this video several times now.

Is there any balance to this enthusiastic laundry list of "here's another negative reason why this is a Very Bad Idea"?

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#204

Post by coredog64 » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #103

adrianN wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really want citizens participating though? I have no clue about what it takes to run a state and I'm not a lawyer and can't really read new laws. Also, I have a job and very limited free time that I don't want to spent on keeping up with new developments in politics. So my opinions are likely very biased and quite useless for the political process. Even elected officials seem to have a hard time reading all th…

Look up the Swiss style of democracy. They have elected officials for day-to-day tasks and frequent referendums for subjective matters. From what I saw, their referendum campaigns are great. You can make your own opinion with an hour or two of research, tops. Even with the very limited time, IMO few hours a year is worth it to be more involved with shaping your own society. Best of both worlds.

Look up the situation in California with referendums. More direct democracy is not always wine and roses.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#205

Post by coredog64 » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #162

guard-of-terra wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be much more difficult? The difference is "upload a photo of your ballot" versus "upload a screenshot of your vote".

The usual scheme is, buyers pick up sellers and drive them to polling places. Police is usually on the look out for cars that frequent the polling stations. Or park just around the corner. The sellers usually are homeless-ish/addicts/etc. Large amount of such people raises awareness. Sometimes approaching such people and asking what's up is enough. They don't bother to lie and just tell they sold their vote to some g…

As I understand it, there's a similar scheme in Oregon's vote-by-mail mechanism. You can buy someone's mail-in ballot, vote the way you want, and have them sign and submit it.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#206

Post by coredog64 » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 2:03 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #77

ElijahLynn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of the arguments against online voting. However, it isn't really realistic to do re-counts right now, nor do people do them regularly. If the people doing the counting are bought then that is an issue too. Both ways suck right now. One thing that I would like to see is an open source, standardized system though. There was/is an effort towards this right now. http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/our_s…

I don't get the complexity the US creates around voting. I live in a fairly large city (Berlin, Germany, around 3 million I believe). - I walk 150m to my polling place. It's similar for most people. - I've never waited more than 5 minutes - The polling place is run mostly by volunteers, about 5 or 6 per place, with civil servants filling spots that can't be filled. Costs are neglible. - I get a paper ballot, I mark m…

Here's what most people that are not from the US don't understand:

When I go to vote on election day, I'm not voting for one person/party or even three people/parties. The typical ballot in my neck of the woods is double sided and has ~30 questions: National elections (President, HoR rep, maybe senator), state elections (Governor, SoS, local rep/senator, corporation commission, referendums/ballot initiatives), county elections (sheriff, judges), city elections (mayor, city council, dog catcher), and funding questions (bond overrides and the like). I'm probably forgetting an item or 10 on that list.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#207

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #204

mantas wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up the Swiss style of democracy. They have elected officials for day-to-day tasks and frequent referendums for subjective matters. From what I saw, their referendum campaigns are great. You can make your own opinion with an hour or two of research, tops. Even with the very limited time, IMO few hours a year is worth it to be more involved with shaping your own society. Best of both worlds.

Look up the situation in California with referendums. More direct democracy is not always wine and roses.

Yes, for instance, Prop 13. Though it sounds good to voters, the actual results are terrible.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#208

Post by mavhc » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 2:06 PM UTC

ElijahLynn wrote: post #29

jacquesm wrote: post #14

Some of the people behind 'wijvertrouwenstemcomputersniet' (we do not trust voting computers) are active in the CCC and have some pretty good arguments on why electronic voting really is a danger to democracy. https://www.ccc.de/en/tags/wahlcomputer The link between electronic voting and online voting is a strong one and one would expect the online voting situation to be far more suspect to all kinds of trickery than…

I agree with some of the arguments against online voting. However, it isn't really realistic to do re-counts right now, nor do people do them regularly. If the people doing the counting are bought then that is an issue too. Both ways suck right now. One thing that I would like to see is an open source, standardized system though. There was/is an effort towards this right now. http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/our_s…

Australia had open source voting machines in 2003

http://www.wired.com/2003/11/aussies-do-it-right-e-voting/

If we can bank online we can vote online, not that hard. Not perfect, but better than paper voting, that's full of bugs

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#209

Post by nine_k » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #168

mantas wrote: post #75

I'm strongly against online voting. The problem #1 is buying and manipulation of votes. Security and/or anonymity is much smaller issue IMO. In my country, barely 50% of people vote. Most people don't care about politics. "Incentivized" votes is a huge issue there. People are routinely brought to polling stations and given a thank-you beer on return. Agitators are using all kind of borderline-blackmailing techniques…

I think you've stumbled across a bigger issue - democracy is fundamentally broken since no one has any incentive to vote correctly. I know a lady who's a likely Trump voter. But she also donated money to Hillary in order to get the "woman card". https://shop.hillaryclinton.com/products/the-woman-card She's pretty honest that it's just entertainment for her - like voting on American Idol. Think about how many election…

Maybe representative democracy is broken (there are reams of good texts written about it).

OTOH direct democracy may be not as broken, since the effects of voting are much more immediate and local. See Switzerland that constantly keeps voting against populist measures like lowering the retirement age. It lasted ~850 years so far, longer than almost all European states and 100% of American states.

Switzerland is compact, but even then it's a pretty loose union, a confederation with important laws significantly varying between its many cantons. This system is more or less imaginable in the US with a more restricted federal government (despite the size that was the rationale for the current multi-step representation system), and hardly even imaginable in highly centralized states like France.

Re: Why Online Voting Is a Danger to Democracy

#210

Post by AimHere » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #148

mantas wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure votes are bought offline too. But it's much more difficult. The people who sell votes don't care to "change their mind". They get their reward and they're happy with that. People who would bother to change their mind, don't sell their votes in the first place.

Why would it be much more difficult? The difference is "upload a photo of your ballot" versus "upload a screenshot of your vote".

Taking a photo of your ballot paper is a criminal offence (at least where I am) and one which can only be committed at a specific physical location and time. In other words, it's a crime with a very low payoff (an individual vote can't be worth very much money), and a relatively high risk of detection.

The risk of getting caught taking a screenie in the security of your own home with no pollwatchers and election officials around is much, much, lower.