Bootcamps vs. College • Hacker News Board

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#201

Post by Zeno84 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

bobwaycott wrote: post #123

autotune wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) That's not really a "bootcamp" issue as it is with a candidate who can't be bothered to learn basic programming concepts or open a book on their own. Almost every book I've read on programming covers OOP in most languages. You can even hack it together in BASH ( http://lab.madscience.nl/oo.sh.txt ), not that you should. 2) LAMP stack is still probably the safest bet (substitute PHP for Python maybe), but yeah, jus…

> 1) That's not really a "bootcamp" issue as it is with a candidate who can't be bothered to learn basic programming concepts or open a book on their own. Almost every book I've read on programming covers OOP in most languages. I wholeheartedly disagree here, and think it very much is an issue with bootcamps. If a bootcamp doesn't even introduce its students to such concepts as classes, instances, OOP, and basic data…

>If a bootcamp doesn't even introduce its students to such concepts as classes, instances, OOP, and basic data types, then it has failed to adequately serve its students with fundamental knowledge and offered a shitty introduction to programming.

Honestly, if someone doesn't understand these very basic concepts, what's his/her curiosity level regarding computer programming? I would not want to hire him/her based soley on that.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#202

Post by genzoman » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

whether or not you come from a CS background, or a bootcamp background the proof is in the pudding: can you answer the whiteboard questions? if so, you pass, and nobody cares where you went/did not go to school.

if that's not enough, revise the whiteboard question.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#203

Post by sotojuan » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

lxe wrote: post #48

Do you remember your college web programming courses? The curriculum is always woefully out of date and seems that traditional undergraduate programs don't focus on updating it. This makes sense -- there are very few academic research areas that deal with practical web applications, and this is obviously mirrored in your undergraduate classes. Don't forget -- universities are also research institutions, while bootcam…

Our Web Programming course was going to be Rails-based and follow the Rails Tutorial[1], but at the last minute it got changed to late 90s PHP. Sad day.

[1] https://www.railstutorial.org/

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#204

Post by Swizec » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

p4wnc6 wrote: post #131

Alex3917 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, all else being equal I would expect bootcamp grads to be significantly more valuable than CS majors, since presumably they're also experts in design, marketing, product management, or some other area. In addition to being able to contribute in a non-development capacity, even in terms of software being good at coding is probably at most 20% of what makes a good developer.

Being good at coding, in the sense of making robust software products that can stably support components of a business, is way more than 20% of the value of a developer. Additionally, in my experience, it's way easier to teach non-development skills to thoughtful programmers than it is to teach adequate programming skills to thoughtful non-programmers. Some of the best designers, managers, product analysts, business…

> Generally speaking, they are very good at this -- so good that it's often threatening to non-technical people who would prefer if there was an easy stereotype suggesting that CS people should be siloed away from non-tech work.

It's almost like having a degree in abstract thinking, designing systems, and discovering hidden requirements makes you good at designing systems to solve complex problems.

Which is what most non-technical work is. Taking an ill-defined problem, and defining+solving it.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#205

Post by AceJohnny2 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:19 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

My girlfriend did a bootcamp. It was a very useful experience, and overall we would recommend it.

All your points are valid, including the last one unfortunately. That was the one black point about my gf's experience when she was having trouble finding something that suited her: they dangled the threat of dropping her from their network.

Also, I should add that bootcamps like hers aren't a "Zero to Hero" offering. They actually expect you to have significant skill in programming, being able to complete non-trivial exercises and projects in their language of choice before even starting. Don't mistake this for a rubber-stamp institution that takes already-skilled people though. It's just that their minimum requirements are already pretty high. The curriculum thereafter is pretty grueling and she learned a lot.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#206

Post by madmax96 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

madmax96 wrote: post #32

I have a slightly more pessimistic view of the situation: Sure, bootcamp grads can write a web application just fine; after all, it's usually only CRUD. But what value are they bringing to an organization? Why would I pay them the same amount as a college graduate who undoubtedly has more total knowledge not only in CS, but in other areas as well? Ideally, a college should expose students to a diverse range of knowle…

I hesitate to add this lest I be accused of moving the goalposts, but I'd like to add that the algorithmic and other low-level knowledge is vital to bringing technological value.

Here's why: I've taken English courses and Music theory courses, but I am not a writer or a composer by any sense of the word. Sure, I can write a blog post or a comment, and I know how to compose a harmony, but I still lack the sort of knowledge necessary to fully embody the full enormity of these titles. Great composers and writers aren't always necessarily thinking "theoretically, I should do X given that I have Y." But a musician that lacks sufficient knowledge regarding music theory will generally lack the ability to compose truly great works.

Yes, most web applications can be completed by just about anyone if you train them a couple of months. But generally that's all that person is capable of. They won't be able to evaluate a technology critically because they fundamentally do not understand how or why it works. I can also create a movie script -- that doesn't mean it will be any good!

From my point of view, the non-hacker community doesn't understand that software and technology can be as aesthetically beautiful as the Sistine chapel. It takes real craftsmanship and deep theoretical knowledge to get there; you can't just wake up and produce that.

I'd like to thank the other commenters who pointed out that there are a lot of Bootcamp grads who did attend college -- I had no idea. It would be interesting to see the actual stats on that.

(Of course I acknowledge a college degree doesn't necessarily imply the level of craftsmanship I'm talking about here, but generally the theoretical knowledge obtained coupled with working in a meaningful way lead to this sort of craftsmanship. Also, just as art is subjective, beautiful software is as well.)

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#207

Post by Jormundir » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:21 PM UTC

These results aren't very surprising because this is about interviewing performance. The goal of bootcamps is "teach you enough to get a job"; they're basically gaming the interview process by teaching to the test. University programs on the other hand are "teach you CS theory"; learning to interview well is up to the student and the specific school's offering of interview training.

I think there's a strong argument to make that university programs are too focused on theory, when the vast majority of their students are going to go out and get practical engineering jobs. I don't want the pendulum to swing too far to the practical side, though, because then you lose the long-term benefits of getting a CS degree. Although, schools can certainly buff up their practical material.

Anecdotally; when I participate in hiring, I tend to discount the bootcamp grads. Maybe it's unfair, but my experience hiring them has been that they know how to interview well, and know their tools well, but when you compare them a year in, they're pretty far behind their university counterparts. I see a plateau, where it's hard for a lot of bootcamp grads to move from doing generic web development to designing more challenging systems. Obviously it depends on the individual, but this seems to be a categorical struggle for bootcamp grads with little technical background. A lot of companies really just need more people doing web development, so being open to the bootcamp pool is essential, and ruling out bootcamp grads is silly.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#208

Post by findjashua » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Computer Science and Software Engineering are different things, the only common factor being programming.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#209

Post by mrdrozdov » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

How does Triplebyte make money? A lot of bootcamps place graduates as part of their process (and is how some of them make money), which is another factor to consider.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#210

Post by cortesoft » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #168

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #26

How is this possible? I think one key aspect that is missing is that boot camp graduates aren't straight off the barista lineup. I took one at age 28 after having worked in a technical role in finance since undergrad. The average age of my class was probably 29. Beyond just time in the workforce, I had a double major in math and economics with a minor in applied statistics. Had I dropped "Behavioral Economics" and ta…

Ditto! I went to a bootcamp after having worked in aerospace for 6+ years and, I had a mechanical engineering degree. I had programmed for a long time and had no problem with basic algorithm exercises (of the kind they spend the early part of these camps on). [1] The problem is, there was no easy way -- for someone like me wanting to go into software -- to (convincingly) say, "Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Gi…

When I started work as a professional software developer 10 years ago, I had zero professional or educational experience as a programmer. I had a BA in Philosophy, and my work experience was being a substitute teacher.

I got a great job with my second interview. How did I convince them to give me a chance? I didn't contribute to open source; I just showed them some of my personal projects. I had written a web based baseball simulation game, and I just showed them the code. I did a quick interview, explained how I had taught myself to program as a youngster, and they offered me a job.

In my years since, I have hired people just like me a number of times. Show me some code, if it is good, you are hired.