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OxyContin's 12-hour problem

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Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#201
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a redhead?

Care to explain why this would make a difference, or else what it's a reference to?

Sorry, I should have included the link; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Pain_tolerance_and_in...

When I had my appendix removed when I was about 12 I awoke and tried to sit up in the middle of the operation. I remembered it and confirmed it with the doc in post-op. The OP's story of waking up during the wisdom tooth extraction reminded me of my experience. Years later I learned of the connection between pain tolerance and red hair, which I have.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#202

There is a difference between marketing and actual use. Its a synthetic opioid, which means it has all the variability of opioids. Any decent doctor should know this, and the guides, if they were any good will indicate it. For example codamol is now not prescribed in a hospital setting for under 5s, after one child died because they had large amounts of the enzyme required to processes it all at once. This caused res…

Sure, it's an opioid. That's not the point. The point is that it's made from an inexpensive generic opioid feedstock: oxycodone. The supposed value-add isn't the painkiller, it's the timed-release agent.

Unless these reporters are simply lying, there's evidence of great variability in the effectiveness of that timed-release agent. But the company's market position depends on the 12-hour dose. If the drug's needed every six hours, the only difference between it and the cheap stuff is price. In that case, most doctors won't prescribe and most payers won't reimburse the expensive stuff.

So, a doctor can ask a patient, "are you willing to take a pill every six hours?" If the patient agrees, the prescription can be very inexpensive and effective. And, wide swings in blood concentration are controllable, which helps avoid both grogginess and withdrawal struggles.

A friend who develops instruments for anesthesiologists has told me that a well-controlled minimal effective dose of pain med works, and manages risk very well. Peoples' rates of clearing these compounds vary a lot, and the timed-release compound doesn't appear to reduce that variability, contrary to the what the marketer is implicitly claiming.

If the treatment is for acute short-term pain (post-op, etc) a six-hour regime isn't a big burden, and the reduced risk of addiction justifies some inconvenience.

If the treatment is for chronic pain, a wise patient and doctor might start by trying the more frequent doses, and move to "time-release" doses if the first treatment doesn't work. Patients and doctors tune their meds all the time. Why not start trying for minimal effective dose, and move to a more addiction-prone regime if the first one desn't work?

But that would foul up the business of Oxycontin's marketer.

A weekly Narcotics Anonymous meeting just moved out of the hall of a church I serve to a bigger hall, because they're gaining members fast. That's not good.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>and that Merck has discovered that it's a new stream of profits by convincing doctors that everyone should take vaccines for low-risk diseases. Depends on what you mean by "low-risk disease." If you mean diseases that are rarely seen, then I think you need to re-examine your stance. The reason a lot of those diseases are low-risk is because the population has herd-immunity from decades of vaccination. This is a goo…

I mean things like HPV vaccination. I'm not going to get my son vaccinated. This is an example of Merck and the other drug manufacturers manufacturing a vaccine to treat a low-risk disease. Pushing it on boys, as well, is simply expanding the market to get more money. When my daughter is old enough, she can get the vaccine, once we have figured out if there are long-term effects from this vaccine of if it's just scar…

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and group you with every other dangerous anti-vaxxer:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/04/opinion/carroll-douglas-hpv-va...

> Such cancer still causes the death of 4,000 women each year in the United States. It's estimated that about 15,000 HPV-associated cancers could be prevented each year by the vaccine. HPV is, unfortunately, often transmitted through sexual activity. It's the cause of genital warts, and it's an extremely common sexually transmitted infection.

> The vaccine is safe. By the summer of 2012, more than 46 million doses of the vaccine had been given in the United States -- almost all to girls because of early awareness of HPV's link to cervical cancer -- and adverse events from vaccines are closely monitored.

> Moreover, there is growing evidence that the recent increase in cancers of the head and neck are also associated with HPV infection. A recent study of more than 1,300 patients with oral cancer found that more than 55% of them were infected with HPV.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#204
post #7

The pervasiveness of OC provided by doctors is amazing. Even as of a year ago, I went into the hospital for back pain and left with a script for two fist fulls of oxy. I looked at the doctor and legitimately thought he was trying to get me hooked. And this was at a world renowned hospital. I have to wonder if Purdue is involved in some kickbacks to Dr's who (over)prescribe.

>The pervasiveness of OC provided by doctors is amazing.

I've also heard just the opposite: dr's being afraid to prescribe them or being skeptical of patients' claims of pain out of fear they are just trying to score some pain pills.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#205
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more how competition, availability, and legality will stop the more addiction-prone (low-income, chronic pain among other health problem) parts of society in America from doing drugs and becoming addicted? If I read your argument correctly, it's that the pharma firms will not market it as much and not profit as much. In my mind that's not enough reasoning that people who simply have a bad situation wo…

I don’t think legalization will reduce addiction (though would defer to empirical studies here). It would make the economic cost of addiction lower for the individual – one problem instead of two. More importantly, it would make doctors (and regulators) more honest participants. If a doctor wants to recommend opiates, it would largely remove their economic incentives for doing so. We don’t think of doctors having muc…

> It would make the economic cost of addiction lower for the individual

Isn't a low cost of addiction a bad thing?

I'm also not just talking about legalization, but mainly the thing about deregulation/competition. I see your logic though, I hope it's not too wishful to assume that less doctors pushing drugs on patients will solve the issue. I suppose it definitely will cut it back some.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#206
I wonder if the accelerometer in a smartwatch could measure levels of pain in a patient? I wonder if tense muscles and other aspects of suffering could be measured and tracked.

I suppose a smartphone app could ask the patient to tap one of the ten pain-level smiley - frowny - sweaty faces at intervals as well.

If so, there'd be a way to measure how fast these painkillers clear from each patient. It might even make it possible for some patients safely to play an active role in their own dosing. Avoiding wide swings in blood concentration is the safest way to go.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#207
post #13

The best part of the article: "Dr. Curtis Wright, who led the agency’s medical review of the drug, declined to comment for this article. Shortly after OxyContin’s approval, he left the FDA and, within two years, was working for Purdue in new product development, according to his sworn testimony in a lawsuit a decade ago." Says it all doesn't it?

Yup.

Regulatory capture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Cultural capture: https://baselinescenario.com/2016/04/22/cultural-capture-in-...

The revolving door between government and the private sector: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/slowing-the-revolving...

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#208
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I don't understand how people can be so pro marijuana on one hand, and so anti-opiates on the other. It's pain. It's not noble to suffer needlessly. Weed is not addictive, or even if it is in some people, to nowhere near the same level as opiates. It's also not responsible for thousands of overdose cases per year. It seems to me that THC pills would be better for pain management in these situations than opiate…

> I also don't think you have much personal experience people who have been addicted to opiates. I said as much. Which is a good enough reason to be suspicious of prohibition for me. And to be clear, I'd find it very difficult to believe anyone gets a two week supply of opiates after surgery and goes all Reefer Madness after following the directions on the prescription. You're talking about people who abuse the drug.…

You're arguing against a strawman. I'm not in favor of banning opioids and I don't know where you even got that impression from.

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#209
post #162
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I don't understand how people can be so pro marijuana on one hand, and so anti-opiates on the other. It's probably the hundreds of thousands of dead people from opiate overdoses vs the 0 dead people from marijuana overdose. > I would guess a majority of adults in the US have had Vicodin or similar and I don't know anyone personally who ever got addicted. You almost certainly know someone who has been addicted,…

Is there a higher rate of opioid addiction amongst opioid users than marijuana addiction amongst marijuana users?

I can't comment on that, but I'd be confident in saying the rate of death is higher~

Re: OxyContin's 12-hour problem

#210
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are weak. But boy, they can sure click a little triangle. The world is safe now.

Please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. We're looking for thoughtful discussion here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Ooh, comments not visible when not logged in. Very 2009.
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