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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#201

Post by raftaa »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #161
jethro_tell wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most likely outcome of this is that exports are sold at the price they are at now, not cheaper. The workers are paid the same as they are now, (which is the market rate). And the difference in what's normal and cost savings from TTIP will go to company bottom line. And the top officers at the company will collect a performance bonus. The unlikely scenario is that the price comes down and more units are sold and/o…

And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line Thus, according to your own logic, the state, which pays social security and benefits is better off and is more fiscally sound

"And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line" ... this is sarcastic isn't it?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_Leaks] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-05-22/google-joi...]

Re: TTIP Leaks

#202

Post by gumby »

odonnellryan wrote: post #194
gumby wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or freed (cumulatively) billions from backbreaking labor.

This is more important. Also, transporting people when they'd die/have horrible conditions otherwise. I think it is a silly argument to say it helped people by helping them exist in the first place. It is a weird argument for a larger population, which probably isn't a great thing.

> larger population [...] probably isn't a great thing.

Julian Simon would have strongly disagreed and he put his money where his mouth was in his famous bets with Erlich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Simon

Re: TTIP Leaks

#204

Post by maxxxxx »

jethro_tell wrote: post #199
maxxxxx wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about paying better salaries so the state doesn't have to do that much? Seems the companies want to have it both ways. Not pay much and have the state provide assistance for underpaid workers (see Walmart) and then complain about taxes too high.

>taxes too high. At 3%, while the majority of earnings goes to the company, the workers carry the tax bill @18%

Well that's the typical discussion at least in the US. "Look how much taxes the top 1% pay over those low income slackers."

Re: TTIP Leaks

#205

Post by soperj »

tacos wrote: post #197
soperj wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was talking about that. But if you want an answer, many of the first cars were electric, if they went with the electric engine instead things wouldn't be exactly the same, but would have allowed the US to increase to 300+ million no problem.

I'm sure the electric planes, tanks and aircraft carriers would've made for some interesting historical footnotes in 1939. Assuming we hadn't already all starved due to the lack of food being produced by the electric farm tractors.

You may have starved. Everyone else would have continued to rely on the steam tractors that were in use well into the 30s. I'm sure most aircraft carriers would be powered the same way nuclear subs are powered now.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#206

Post by tacos »

soperj wrote: post #205
tacos wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the electric planes, tanks and aircraft carriers would've made for some interesting historical footnotes in 1939. Assuming we hadn't already all starved due to the lack of food being produced by the electric farm tractors.

You may have starved. Everyone else would have continued to rely on the steam tractors that were in use well into the 30s. I'm sure most aircraft carriers would be powered the same way nuclear subs are powered now.

Ah yes. Wake up a few extra hours before sunrise to load crisp, clean-burning coal into a furnace. Then fiddle with dials waiting for it to come up to pressure without exploding. Then drag a cast iron boiler and tons of water (!) on tiny wheels across muddy fields, generating 15 horsepower. Built to scale!

Re: TTIP Leaks

#207

Post by alex20 »

i get the idea but it's not true. the tables enumerating the tariffs and such on different classes of products alone can take thousands of pages, and there generally isn't anything so malicious in there. they get incredibly specific. for example in the section of the TPP relating to Chile, there are three subcategories of "articles for Christmas festivities." Another example of how specific they get is a class "Endless transmission belts of trapezoidal cross-section, of an outside circumference exceeding 60cm but not exceeding 180cm"

edit: I should clarify that it's a tariff elimination schedule, so it's thousands of pages describing exactly how quickly the tariffs drop to 0. Most lines of the table are "Year 1: 0%." As to why some products have a more gradual decline over a few years, I don't know, probably some special interest influence, true. A small change in tariffs can mean life or death to certain businesses.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#208

Post by odonnellryan »

gumby wrote: post #202
odonnellryan wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more important. Also, transporting people when they'd die/have horrible conditions otherwise. I think it is a silly argument to say it helped people by helping them exist in the first place. It is a weird argument for a larger population, which probably isn't a great thing.

> larger population [...] probably isn't a great thing. Julian Simon would have strongly disagreed and he put his money where his mouth was in his famous bets with Erlich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Simon

Yes, but he actually got lucky. Given the average of any 10-year period in the last 100 years I believe Simon would have been wrong.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#209

Post by marknutter »

legulere wrote: post #94
witty_username wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without. Citation? I haven't heard of anyone who is dependent on tranquilizers or anti-depressants (well, apart from the Internet from people with clin…

The first thing I found on duckduckgo: http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20111019/use-of-antidep... "About 11% of Americans aged 12 or older take antidepressants" (2011) "the rate of antidepressant use in the U.S. has increased nearly 400% since 1988." Many people that are on anti-depressants won't tell you about it. edit: Really? Downvote me just because I provided a source to the claim that more people are on an…

That doesn't necessarily people are more depressed now than they were in the past. It could also mean that people who would have been depressed either way are now finally getting treatment for it. Sounds pretty good to me.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#210

Post by davnn »

wfo wrote: post #150
untog wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is "statistics might tell one story, but let me tell you, without citing sources or evidence, those statistics are wrong".

No, what he's saying is "your metrics are measuring the wrong things and so it does not matter what numbers pop out of them; they are completely meaningless when it comes to answering the question which is actually important".

But nobody can answer the important question except for themselves.
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