San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents • Hacker News Board

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#201

Post by timr » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #195

timr wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

I've thought about that, but as far as I can tell, it means about $10-$15k of equipment and a dedicated work room. I need a mobile-connected "smart" whiteboard for every team member, a good microphone, webcam, speakers, a separate computer + monitor devoted to video conferencing, and a team that is geographically dispersed rather than partially-colocated. ...and hopefully, everyone has first class redundant internet,…

I'm not suggesting that you have to have a distributed team -- though, you certainly can, and $10-$15k is trivial compared to the economic penalty of hiring good engineers in SF.

I'm just saying: consider locating your company somewhere else. There are great engineers all over the world, and most of your customers are not here.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#202

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #151

TranquilMarmot wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the amount of vitriol in your comment, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I feel like tech workers in San Francisco are fully bought-in to the "this is the best and only place to be if you're in tech" idea. So much so that they can't quite see that the grass is just as green on the other side, so to speak. You have to be fully bought-in to it, there's no other way you would be able to justify…

I'm curious if you've lived in the Bay Area for any length of time. I used to live in Boston (which at the time was the #2 tech scene in the country, but has probably been eclipsed by Seattle/NYC/Austin by now). There were startups and meetups and hacker spaces as well, including a number of famous ones. The Bay Area is a huge difference in degree. The difference is that you had to find the "tech scene" in Boston, wh…

"while in Silicon Valley, tech is the scene." Yes that about sums up a monoculture for me.

Contrast this with a city like New York where you also have publishing, finance, advertising as well as solid tech.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#203

Post by seivan » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

rfrank wrote: post #147

seivan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech isn't creative and artistic? Why is an "album" worth more than a graphics engine, drawing app or game? If anything music is overvalued. I'm surprised we haven't automated Skrillex and all that house crap yet. ;-)

> Why is an "album" worth more than a graphics engine... Why is a Picasso worth more than paint?

Because the introduction of GPU's didn't come until 30~ years ago ;-) also it's a single physical item. It's more of a collective piece than actual art, at least today.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#204

Post by leesalminen » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:31 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #164

jrjarrett wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these people and where are they getting that kind of cash?

(Not OP, but know several people that do this sort of investing...) It's a combination of 1.) Wealthy Asian businesspeople who are looking for a place to park some of the foreign reserves they own overseas. 2.) Hedge funds, investing institutional capital in relatively "safe" investments with guaranteed revenue streams. 3.) Corporate prop-trading desks, parking corporate profits in tax-advantaged long-term assets unt…

> 3.) Corporate prop-trading desks, parking corporate profits in tax-advantaged long-term assets until its needed. Google, for example, is a major owner of affordable housing developments.

Very interesting as Google will be expanding their offices in Boulder over the next few years. I believe they've broke ground on the campus here.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#205

Post by jimminy » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #186

whack wrote: post #111

It's hard to overstate the impact this is going to have on San Francisco, long-term. As Technology becomes the most important industry in America, a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would…

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

The fact that everything closed so early blew me away, when I moved there. Compared to the middle of nowhere WV it made zero sense. Even the grocery stores closed by midnight in SF.

In WV, you can find food at most places until 12-1am 7 days a week. And the major local grocery is a Walmart, which is open 24 hours.

Last Easter I had no clue nothing would be open, and didn't prepare for that. So I just had some crap picked up at a gas station to hold me over until the next day. It's a really bizarre situation compared to most other metros, but even compared to a bunch of small towns.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#206

Post by aetherson » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #111

It's hard to overstate the impact this is going to have on San Francisco, long-term. As Technology becomes the most important industry in America, a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would…

The idea that in-fill development could have possibly made a drastic change in rents in San Francisco is genuinely crazy. I see people making that claim all the time, and it's madness, guys. Even if literally every density-increasing project was rubber-stamped with zero money or time cost, how many housing units do you think that this city could possibly have added in the last fifteen years?

Unless you're proposing eminent-domaining people out of their houses to be handed over to for-profit developers (and man, that's a mess, and it's still super-expensive), you aren't going to be replacing too many blocks of two-storey homes with high rises, and you're also quickly going to saturate the ability of local developers to build out giant skyscraper projects -- like, how much slack do you think that there possibly was in the construction industry?

And as soon as we step away from literally insane levels of accommodation to a pattern of in-fill development and recognize that, rightly or wrongly, in-fill development is not wildly popular and you can't just strong-arm an entire city into an unpopular policy, the realistic amount of new development that you could get in SF is, you know, maybe twice as much development as we actually did get.

Which might've shaved 5% off the rents or so.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#207

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

ak4g wrote: post #155

bogomipz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really - "This is the most thriving technical community in the entire world"? I'm calling BS. Have you been to New York City recently? Rents for a 1 bedroom are nowhere near that. Lets talk about that community - there are meetups? Wow. You can go to a meetup on any night of the week in New York or Austin. Besides that explain "the community"? Oh you go out and drink craft beers after work? You can do that anywhere.…

I lived in NYC and frequented it's tech scene for about a year, ending mid-2013. Unless it's more-or-less quintupled in the last three years, there's no comparison. The first python meetup I went to in SF (back in 2013) had 300 spots and a waitlist that I doubt got cleared. The NYC meetups I went to managed maybe 80 RSVPs and a couple dozen who actually showed up. Once you get to anything more specialized than a prog…

So a meetup with 24 new people to network with wasn't enough for you? It's better to have meetup that you can't attend because there's a waitlist? How is that better?

So far all I hear is density. Is density of tech workers the arbiter by which you just how good a "scene", I will take quality any day. Are all of them awesome, engaging, friendly and social and supportive?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#208

Post by kabes » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #180

technofiend wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. From Bankrate.com - Seven U.S. states currently don't have an income tax: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. And residents of New Hampshire and Tennessee are also spared from handing over an extra chunk of their paycheck on April 15, though they do pay tax on dividends and income from investments.

It's similarly worth noting that CA has the highest income tax rates of any state in the nation for most individuals. For instance, for incomes between around $51k and $263k the rate is 9.30%. My state's rate is 4.25%, which is closer to not having a tax at all.

As a guy from Europe I don't know much about the US tax system. If somebody mentions he earns $120k, I assume that's gross salary? What does he usually end up with net? From what I understand it depends on the state. Is that 4.25% you talk about the only tax there is?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#209

Post by geebee » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #174

ghaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is extreme population and industry concentration such a great thing? Yes, there are certain virtues to the concentration of talent and energy which happens in major cities generally--but I'm unconvinced that doing some Singapore-style 20-year plan to transform San Francisco into a western Manhattan is either necessary or desirable.

There's no need for that. Build a little bit up in a lot of places, and you'll start meeting the demand. In a few places, you can build up more, but look at, say, Paris. The density doesn't come from massive skyscrapers, but by being fairly dense all over. Also: SF's refusal to build is having repercussions elsewhere, like here in Oregon where there is a steady stream of people who can't afford a house for their fami…

I agree, in a way, since I really want to see the bay area engage in meaningful construction (along with expanding BART and other types of public transportation).

But if SF's refusal to build is having repercussions in Oregon, and all SF needs to do is build… well, then shouldn't Portland be able to solve its problems by doing the same thing?

Or has NIMBYism morphed into NIMSOTPNW (not in my section of the pacific northwest)?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#210

Post by timr » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

humbleMouse wrote: post #196

timr wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

Funny you mentioned not being able to get a good meal after 9:30pm. That was the most frustrating thing about being in San Francisco for me. I hated that the whole bay seemed to shut down @10pm - almost as if everybody has to wake up the next morning to work another 12 hour day to pay the insane rent.....

Don't get me started. You get inured to it after a while, but every time I travel outside of SF, I remember what it's like to live in a real city.

I moved here because it had a pleasant climate and (once had) a vibrant art/culture scene that provided ~80% of what you could get in bigger cities, at a discount. It was a city, but with a higher quality of life. For that, you might be willing give up some things.

That's no longer true. I don't know how new people rationalize the costs here, except as an "investment" into something else -- their career, real estate, whatever.