Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect • Hacker News Board

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#201

Post by soundwave106 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

gukov wrote: post #177

6stringmerc wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely; he's stated as much flat out. "I want to make it easier to sue the press." As Trump so clearly shows, it's very easy to sue somebody in the US (or use it as an empty threat) - there's lots of avenues for recourse. Unfortunately for Trump, the courts have consistently sided with the press when they report accurate and factual statements, even if they may be unflattering. This doesn't seem to register with…

So let him sue and let the courts deal with it. Do you think the media needs to be a little more accountable or the hysteria is good?

Accountability for accuracy is desirable. But with strongmen leaders, "accountability in media" tends to be "toe the party line", regardless of accuracy.

Practically I don't think Trump would get very far with any sort of libel lawsuits. Even in Italy, Berlusconi's "sue into silence" strategy was not 100% effective -- and Berlusconi is a much more dominant player in comparative national medias than Trump is.

Even so, my gut feeling is that Trump would be perfectly okay with a Putin / Erdogan style strongman media takeover if he could get away with it.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#202

Post by dang » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

mikerichards wrote: post #125

jimbokun wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A preview of what's in store if the U.S. somehow manages to elect Trump.

Unlike pissant, shitholes like the UK, France, or Canada we have a first amendment. Obama and Trump can suck my dick.

Please don't do this here.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#203

Post by fauigerzigerk » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #131

sydneysider wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

Turkey, unlike most of the middle east in the news, descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman). The culture is not far different from Greek. There is a regression to islamism with erdogan, but i don't think that's a permanent thing now. There is definitely some racism here.

No, I don't think it's racism. It's islamophobia, specifically a hostility towards the conservative trends within Islam that have become so much more dominant than they used to be. And faith based hostility absolutely goes both ways.

I know this is a taboo subject, but we should stop acting as if religion was a racial attribute. It's not. Religions are opinions, and people will have to accept that others will take those opinions into account when it comes to forming a political union.

The difficult thing is that only individuals can hold opinions but only countries can join the EU. So we are forced by the very nature of this decision to make a summary judgement that ignores individual opinions and therefore will be very unfair to some.

This is something I am personally struggling with when it comes to Turkish EU membership.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#204

Post by 0xFFC » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #190

0xFFC wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure nonsense. Are you kidding me ? do you have any idea what you are talking about ? Even Iraqi Kurds trying to ban PKK because they know what's going on in that organization. Even Kurds in turkey are not happy with PKK. They want a reform , but most of them wants stay in turkey, while the "being Turkish citizen definition changed".Look at how popular HDP is in Kurdish areas in Turkey. You have no clue what…

Rather than mislead everyone, why not quote what exactly you disagree with, and offer evidence? - "How could Isis be eliminated? In the region, everyone knows. All it would really take would be to unleash the largely Kurdish forces of the YPG (Democratic Union party) in Syria, and PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ party) guerillas in Iraq and Turkey. These are, currently, the main forces actually fighting Isis on the ground. T…

You don't have clue what you are talking about.Read and listen to serious scholors instead of wasting people times in HN.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#205

Post by nkoren » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:25 PM UTC

gkya wrote: post #78

gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

Thanks for explaining this. I was struggling to understand Erdogan's tactics. On the surface they seem simply idiotic: the Streisand effect is hardly news, so the result of protesting this video is utterly, utterly predictable whose been paying attention to the world at any point over the past 20 years.

But however much I might disagree with Erdogan, I know that he probably isn't actually be an idiot: people who can grab and hold that much power rarely are. Your explanation of how he's manufacturing this kerfuffle for a domestic audience makes a lot more sense.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#206

Post by return0 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

jakub_h wrote: post #138

return0 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey, unlike most of the middle east in the news, descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman). The culture is not far different from Greek. There is a regression to islamism with erdogan, but i don't think that's a permanent thing now. There is definitely some racism here.

> "descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman)" Where the terms "multicultural" and "religiously tolerant" apparently mean something quite a bit different from today (just like Athenian democracy from ours, for example).

I don't think they are that different. Even romans had multiculturalism. Tolerance was not invented in the modern West.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#207

Post by dracht » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

egeozcan wrote: post #170

dracht wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes? Don't put words in my mouth, I said no such thing. You offered no rebuttal to what I said, only slander. Explain to me why Moroccan immigrants have not assimilated and why they are so grossly overrepresented when it comes to crime. To say this is all the result of the natives being racist towards Moroccans in particular, that they are forced into this bad behav…

> Explain to me why Moroccan immigrants have not assimilated and why they are so grossly overrepresented when it comes to crime. Here, you are implying something. Why don't you just tell it? > Don't put words in my mouth I'm just asking, as I can't think anything else on their side that would put them systematically at fault here, which you suggest is the case. > To say this is all the result of the natives being rac…

You are the only one bringing up race here and steering the conversation towards it. To me it seems obvious that the problem is their culture (islam included). It just doesn't lend itself to blending in with a liberal western society. The multicultural dream is that you can put people of completely different backgrounds in one place and they will naturally form a progressive utopia. The reality is less ideal - thus far I have yet to see the mutual benefits from all this needless friction.

I don't see the problem with making the statement that most of the terrorists in Turkey are Kurds, when that is the case. It's not an irrelevant statistic, it's indicative of some problem somewhere. The Moroccans in the Netherlands are nothing like the Kurds and Turks though - there is no (historical) feud, they simply came here and never changed their ways. In my opinion the responsibility to adapt lies with the immigrant, not the host. The only things I fault the native Dutch people for in this case are their naivety and short-sightedness.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#208

Post by c06n » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:31 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #26

thirdsun wrote: post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

> Medium-term, Turkey does actually belong in the EU

German here, I completely agree. I don't necessarily think Turkey would be a good fit for the EU, quite the opposite. But I do believe in the near future Europe will have to solve problems on a large scale that Turkey poses to a way lesser extent. If we cannot handle the Turkey situation, I don't see what future the European way of life (whatever that is supposed to be) has 100 years from now, in an ever changing world.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#209

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #133

I'm always wondering, how does a country that venerates Atatürk ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk ) and was concious of the values around which he built modern Turkey, can retrace its steps back and undo all that took so much effort to get. Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way be…

How were the Ku^H^HMountain Turks supposed to enjoy all that openness and liberal values when they were dead?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#210

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

armaxt wrote: post #100

Why is it hard to understand that islam and western values just can NOT coexist? Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the western civilization?

Those Orthodox and Catholic countries sure had a grand old time with democracy before the positivists came about, huh?