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High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

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201–210 of 236 posts

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#201
“I’m unemployable now as a result of getting to the top of the tree”

This shows a lack of understanding of the market and poor self-awareness for someone who claims to be at the top of the tree.

The average company is looking to employ someone who will do the same job cheaper.

In order to earn more, it's necessary to identify employers who are willing to pay a premium for convenience or for an unusually skilled or experienced worker, and be aware of those before getting laid off.

This man seems particularly aggrieved that he lost a role to a "young woman with five years experience". A white man should not and does not automatically trump a woman - if he costs more (which he doesn't actually know for sure) then that's his problem.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#202
The article doesn't really address it directly but they seem to be mainly talking about people who are looking for jobs who are currently _unemployed_. They are in a position of weakness when it comes to looking for a job and especially when negotiating salary. I think this has way more to do with that than any alleged trend of talking about salary up front. It's been the norm for decades to ask framing questions about salary early on.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now I just flat out say what my jump-number is. Any answer other than "yeah, we can work with that" is a reason to end the conversation and save everybody's time. Can't upvote that enough! I've been doing this for years. I don't have time to waste and if they won't talk the numbers there is no point in having the conversation. Statements like "we are competitive" or my other favorite "can you send us proof of your…

No, you never give out a number. It's like asking the person sitting across from you to show you their cards before placing a bet. If a company is willing to pay $100K and you throw out a number, say $80K for example, then how much are you out? If your first thought is $20K, then you'd probably be wrong. You would be correct if you stayed only one year with the company. However, every year you're with the company you…

Always give your number first. It's called anchoring. Backed by good research.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#204
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been on the hiring side as a manager in a number of companies, and I've NEVER seen a situation where a candidate was so uniquely awesome that the company was willing to make an offer drastically larger than their normal range for that role. A bit more? Sure. Some more stock or something? Often. But not, say, 50% more salary than anyone else at that level is getting. Fyi, at $DayJob we have one guy at my level…

How about when so-so dev makes 50% more than rock star dev! It's real. Why? The underperformer w/high-salary was brought in by some idiot manager x years ago - that manager has since lost their job - but this ok performer still pretty good and still in their job. Have had rock stars contact the company - willing to work for 50% under market and we'd be crazy not to put them on. Without even having an open position at…

A lot of times in situations like this there's eventually pressure from above to manage such people out ... for obvious reasons.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now I just flat out say what my jump-number is. Any answer other than "yeah, we can work with that" is a reason to end the conversation and save everybody's time. Can't upvote that enough! I've been doing this for years. I don't have time to waste and if they won't talk the numbers there is no point in having the conversation. Statements like "we are competitive" or my other favorite "can you send us proof of your…

No, you never give out a number. It's like asking the person sitting across from you to show you their cards before placing a bet. If a company is willing to pay $100K and you throw out a number, say $80K for example, then how much are you out? If your first thought is $20K, then you'd probably be wrong. You would be correct if you stayed only one year with the company. However, every year you're with the company you…

Presumably if you're female, then you can use "equal" pay legislation to ensure you get whatever the best male negotiator got. Thus you could accept a lower wage up front in order to seal the deal.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#206
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wait for the next job? If both you and your employer understand your wage is under market value, your work is good, and you are reliable, why are you hesitating bringing up your current pay? Give them a number that works for you.

*edit- wow that ended up a lot longer than intended. Interesting point and totally valid. I agree with your sentiment, though sitting back, it reads idealistic to me. Easier stated than done. But I did exactly that last year. My manager and his, our director responded well to it. I was prepared to walk if they feigned offense/anger (had that happen once years ago at another place). I got a decent raise, 10%. I don't…

I feel you on this:

    The last couple of years it's been the first time I've
    received humane treatment and spooked to start over 
    somewhere else.
Like you I struggle with trying to do the right thing, and put in unhealthy hours. Although it sounds like I haven't reached your level of enlightenment yet (even though I think I'm a few years older than you).

I think the trap I fall into is telling myself that the long hours are for my own good. "Well, at least this 58302-hour week is helping me to really polish my skills in this stack." Which is actually fucking true to an extent, which is why it's a seductive trap. I mean, there really is no substitute for putting in the hours if you're looking to hone a craft. And honing that craft is a big part of what will allow one to earn for one's family 5, 10, 20 years down the line.

But people say, "so look for a new job if this one's unhealthy!" like it's as easy as changing a pair of socks.

Changing jobs is challenging and disruptive and it's very difficult to ensure you'll wind up at a company with a healthier culture, particularly if you're already working at a company with a culture that's already above average for your field. And especially if the workaholism problem largely comes from inside yourself, like it does for me. Changing companies won't fix that.

It's even more complicated when explaining myself to family because of the bizarre image that people have of the tech industry! People see Google's "adult playground for engineers" workplace image in stories on 60 minutes and think the life of a programmer is just playing around all day long. It's not even that way at Google, much less your average tech company.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#207

"Time and again, he says, employers seem to lose interest after he answers a question that they ask early on: 'What was your last salary?'" I never answer that question. Almost always it's been recruiters asking that (and only some recruiters, the less reputable ones). This is a seller's market for IT talent. You don't have to give in to bullying tactics to get a good job. I've had to walk away exactly once when a re…

I'm the exact opposite. I'm at a rate that's above the local market, so I mostly have to work remotely for firms in areas with higher cost of living. Any recruiter is going to find my salary range within the first 90 seconds of talking to me. This allows me to filter out 90% of calls because the salary range they're offering isn't even close.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now I just flat out say what my jump-number is. Any answer other than "yeah, we can work with that" is a reason to end the conversation and save everybody's time. Can't upvote that enough! I've been doing this for years. I don't have time to waste and if they won't talk the numbers there is no point in having the conversation. Statements like "we are competitive" or my other favorite "can you send us proof of your…

No, you never give out a number. It's like asking the person sitting across from you to show you their cards before placing a bet. If a company is willing to pay $100K and you throw out a number, say $80K for example, then how much are you out? If your first thought is $20K, then you'd probably be wrong. You would be correct if you stayed only one year with the company. However, every year you're with the company you…

This is great advice, and I agree with most of it.

As a headhunter, I wholeheartedly agree that you should never give out a number in negotiations. By doing so, you either sell yourself short or price yourself out. These days, especially, technical talent has the leverage and should use it to their advantage. When the market cycle shifts and employers have more strong applicants than necessary, it will be different. That's why, like you said, the $20K difference today will pay huge dividends over the long-term.

I disagree on "going rates." That lumps candidates into an average, which is unfair to them. Salary negotiations are complex and presumptions on the part of a headhunter will backfire.

Above all, I want transparency upfront. My ideal situation is when I know that the candidate's and employer's approximate compensation ranges are aligned. Granted, it's rare, but there's nothing worse than a positive interview process followed by the surprise reveal that both parties were way off in their expectations. The time wasted for the headhunter is negligible compared to that of both the employer and candidate. This is why I want to know the rough ranges at the onset. However, I agree that headhunters are trained to place undue pressure on candidates for specific numbers and it's a poor practice.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#209
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only true to never give out your number if you have a nontrivial probability of being offered a higher salary than said number. If you expect $X and only 5% of employers out there are willing to pay >=$X, it might very well be worth your time to state $X at the start to avoiding wasting countless hours in an interviewing process.

They should tell you their range before beginning, not the other way around. Recruiters already have a massive advantage: they have much better knowledge of the market (many more datapoints), why give them for free an additional advantage they can only use against you?

That may also largely depend on who the recruiter you're talking to works for. If it's HR for the company that's different than a third party technical recruiter like a TEKSystems or something. The third party technical recruiter, which is who I'm usually talking to, has no real incentive to low-ball you.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#210

"Time and again, he says, employers seem to lose interest after he answers a question that they ask early on: 'What was your last salary?'" I never answer that question. Almost always it's been recruiters asking that (and only some recruiters, the less reputable ones). This is a seller's market for IT talent. You don't have to give in to bullying tactics to get a good job. I've had to walk away exactly once when a re…

If recruiters are chasing me while I'm gainfully employed...

I, jack up the rate Im currently making, which has worked once; got a better paying gig.

If recruiters are chasing me while I'm looking for my next gig...

I make up a fair livable wage salary that won't push me out of consideration

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