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Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

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Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#201

Post by fixermark »

chii wrote: post #175
fixermark wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It, sadly, goes deeper than that, past architecture to philosophy. LLVM is designed to be modularized and embedded in other binaries and toolchains, which makes it easier to build extensions and tooling around it. In addition to having a mountain of legacy code, gcc's project steering is philosophically opposed to allowing non-free (as in GPL) plugins [ https://lwn.net/Articles/582242/ ]. Because of this, developers…

> gcc's project steering is philosophically opposed to allowing non-free (as in GPL) plugins I think that's the right philosophy. Why shouldn't you be contributing your plugin if you derive value from it, so that other people can derive value from it just as you did with GCC (if you distribute it that is - if you wrote it inhouse for internal use, then it doesn't matter at all!). It's not like the code generated by G…

> LLVM's permissive license means that contributions don't flow back unless it's favourable to the entity contributing it (such as good PR).

There are multiple reasons to push code up the chain to the wider world beyond fuzzy feelings regarding your corporation.

Never underestimate the benefits of outsourcing your code maintenance and integration costs. ;)

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#202

Post by dragonwriter »

djsumdog wrote: post #78
JoshTriplett wrote: post #67

The sad thing is that "easy to link and embed" and "permissive license" really didn't have to go together like they did in LLVM. GCC could have provided a library that made it easy to do code generation or compiler development. That library could still have used the GPL, so that only Free Software could use it. Some of the work that has happened around LLVM wouldn't have happened around such a library, but some of it…

I feel like you're missing the point of the GNU GPL. The original idea behind the FSFs idea of open source was an ecosystem where every new development resulted in more open and free code. We're talking about people who truly believed in getting away from commercial software entirely. There were people who felt that one day, Linux desktops could replace Windows and even high end tools like Photoshop and Final Cut wou…

The web itself is a federated system, running largely on Free software, built to open specifications. (Email, too.) The idea that we don't have federated systems and that those that do exist are unused isn't particularly based in reality.

It's true that the Free Software federated systems that are more strongly based in ideology that bringing use-value to users have generally failed to experience uptake, but that should probably not be considered a surprise.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#203

Post by geofft »

pekk wrote: post #195
geofft wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the argument above that he was wrong? He may have been morally right that free software is an inherent good over proprietary software, but that's sort of a given for this discussion. He was tactically wrong in taking an expansive view of both what free software licenses should enforce and what fell within their realm of enforcement. He was hoping that GCC would be so much better than the competition that people…

If Apple takes a stance against GPL because they don't perceive it as in their commercial best interest, that doesn't mean Stallman was wrong even in a 'tactical' sense. You can't do anything about haters.

Of course Apple does not perceive the GPL as in their commercial best interest. Back when NeXT was writing what would eventually become Apple's toolchain, Steve Jobs tried to convince Stallman that he could come up with a plugin architecture and keep the Objective-C bit private. Stallman went to his lawyer and came back and said, no, you can't do that.

Steve Jobs' perception, and NeXT/Apple's perception, never changed. What changed is that in the NeXT days, GCC was so much better that Apple said, we'll make the tradeoff of using GCC even though we don't want the GPL. A few years ago Apple said, we'll make the tradeoff of avoiding the GPL even though we want GCC. And they went and invested significant resources into LLVM.

The GPL was meant to be a tool to get people who did not perceive free software as in their best interest to contribute to free software anyway. It might not have changed whether they were "haters" as a matter of opinion, but it was definitely intended to change their concrete actions. And it did -- for a very long time.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#204

Post by SFjulie1 »

sandGorgon wrote: post #183
JoshTriplett wrote: post #67

The sad thing is that "easy to link and embed" and "permissive license" really didn't have to go together like they did in LLVM. GCC could have provided a library that made it easy to do code generation or compiler development. That library could still have used the GPL, so that only Free Software could use it. Some of the work that has happened around LLVM wouldn't have happened around such a library, but some of it…

What GCC and RMS did (and I suspect their goal was all along) was to change the Overton Window [1] of acceptability for open source. Remember this was still the time that Solaris was not open source, and Microsoft was borging competitors . It was not definitely the Visual-Studio-is-open-source time. By creating a hard line, and building a compelling alternative to proprietary compilers, he introduced a seed of change…

The true genious is bill gates who invented closed source software in 1976 letter to the hobbyist.

Now everybody cannot think of sofware as naturally different than propietary.

Hence giving an opportunity for a natural monopoly. Bill gates used security an argument a lot, and only became a little more secure by using permissive open source or buying software from poorer concurrent that had no good backup from their banks.

Bill gates is the baron de Beaumarchais of computers : whining about being riped of software he did not created because people would give the interpreter so that their code could be used.

A right on the second creation.

Just for the record Beaumarchais, whining for special treatment as an artist. He was a smuggler, a weapon dealer, a baron, an aristocrat, and a revolutionary AND he created the fundamental rights of authors.

The true fundation of liberalism: as long as it works for me, let's do revolution.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#205

Post by saurik »

ambrice wrote: post #165
saurik wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, most of these options revert back to default as soon as you format something; but I agree that I would have preferred iomanip to generally be a wrapper around values rather than a silent modifier of the stream.

Which is worse than none of them reverting back to default..

(...and if it makes you feel any worse, I got curious when I saw your response which ones didn't reset, and it turns out I had it backwards: most of them don't reset, except the one that does :/.)

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#207

Post by dragonwriter »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #109
djsumdog wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're missing the point of the GNU GPL. The original idea behind the FSFs idea of open source was an ecosystem where every new development resulted in more open and free code. We're talking about people who truly believed in getting away from commercial software entirely. There were people who felt that one day, Linux desktops could replace Windows and even high end tools like Photoshop and Final Cut wou…

> I feel like you're missing the point of the GNU GPL. The original idea behind the FSFs idea of open source was an ecosystem where every new development resulted in more open and free code. First of all, "FSF's idea of open source"? They'd rather vigorously object to that phrasing. :) But no, that was exactly my point: I'd argue that intentionally choosing to not allow the development of a library version of GCC, ev…

RMS -- and perhaps the FSF more generally -- seems more concerned with preventing non-Free software, with creating Free Software as a means to that end, than increasing the volume of Free Software.

To RMS, non-Free software isn't just worse than Free software, its a net harm to society such that it's better to have no software than to have non-Free software. Its even often (apparently, to RMS) better to have no additional software than to have a lot of additional Free Software and some additional non-Free software.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#208

Post by spiralpolitik »

geofft wrote: post #185
carapace wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman, however, is correct. (I'm going to get that on a t-shirt, printed in block letters: "Stallman is correct.")

Isn't the argument above that he was wrong? He may have been morally right that free software is an inherent good over proprietary software, but that's sort of a given for this discussion. He was tactically wrong in taking an expansive view of both what free software licenses should enforce and what fell within their realm of enforcement. He was hoping that GCC would be so much better than the competition that people…

The dream of a GPL world only ever worked if the entire ecosystem was GPL and it was possible to derive a living from ecosystem. The revolution never happened. One could even argue that RMS' more civilized age never really existed outside of the MIT AI lab so it was doomed from the beginning.

Due to his stubbornness in not accepting the realpolitik the savannah has now become a reservation that is shrinking daily as people abandon it for more liberal climes.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#209

Post by dgellow »

rpgmaker wrote: post #186
carapace wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman, however, is correct. (I'm going to get that on a t-shirt, printed in block letters: "Stallman is correct.")

People make the mistake of assuming Stallman or the FSF cares about "market share".

That's the correct response.
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