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HFS+ is crazy

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Re: HFS+ is crazy

#201

Post by digi_owl »

coldtea wrote: post #182
digi_owl wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_...

Most of these are either of the "it's not how it used to be done variety", bug complaints (which can and do get fixed), and "straying of the unix way" (as if that is a technical argument. Sometimes you DO need to stray off the UNIX way to improve things, namely any time "does one thing well" comes to the detriment of "needs overall overview and cooperation instead of a disparate set of things that can't be glued prop…

OVerview and cooperation, sure. But everything in one ball of code because of "APIs"?!

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#202

Post by josh64 »

chetanahuja wrote: post #181
marssaxman wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not broken, it's just old. It's a legacy technology from the original Macintosh system released in 1984 - before it was even called "Mac OS". Your "reasonable user expectations" are conditioned by three decades of experience with systems that largely didn't exist when the Macintosh resource fork was designed.

Yes the filesystem is from the 80's and from a period where Unix filesystem model had perhaps not gained the dominance that it did in later years. The question is why is it still being used in OSX 15 years after a complete redesign of the system around a Unix kernel?

You used to be able to install Mac OS X on UFS volumes but unfortunately they removed that option in later releases :(

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#203

Post by School-Cotton »

rdancer wrote: post #198
School-Cotton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Jobs really know/care about technical details like what filesystem OS X used?

Why would you think he wasn't? Many anecdotes mention him micromanaging minute details, and many of the things he mentions in keynotes are highly technical as well as low-level.

I didn't have a prior belief either way; I was asking out of genuine curiosity.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#204

Post by empthought »

KirinDave wrote: post #193
empthought wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no such indications.

The derelict OS, continued lockdown of OSX, UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement", the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store, the OSX store letting a cert expire. Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pr…

> The derelict OS

What? It has a major release every year. Arguably that's too often.

> continued lockdown of OS X

An indication of long-term investment in OS X. If they wanted to move people to iOS, they wouldn't bother.

> UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement"

There is almost no UI convergence. Do you even use an OS X system? The iPad Pro is only a potential laptop replacement for certain niches; for non-power-users it's more of an iPad replacement.

> the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store

Has nothing to do with the operating system.

> the OSX store letting a cert expire.

Has nothing to do with the operating system.

> Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pro, which is very clearly a vision of computing that is more like iOS.

Notebooks as a whole are stagnant. Apple manages to make much more money, on essentially the same hardware as everyone else, simply by investing in their brand by spending a little more time on industrial design and the operating system. They would be fools to change anything about that arrangement.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#205

Post by KirinDave »

empthought wrote: post #204
KirinDave wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The derelict OS, continued lockdown of OSX, UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement", the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store, the OSX store letting a cert expire. Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pr…

> The derelict OS What? It has a major release every year. Arguably that's too often. > continued lockdown of OS X An indication of long-term investment in OS X. If they wanted to move people to iOS, they wouldn't bother. > UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement" There is almost no UI convergence. Do you even use an OS X system? The iPad Pro is only a potential laptop replacement for certain niches; for no…

Excuses, excuses, and fine-grained sub-classifications. OSX feels bad and stale. The store breaking only exacerbated this.

Oh, and El Capitan's fucked dev experience?

> There is almost no UI convergence.

"Almost" being notification center which is really important and interacted with regularly, I guess.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#206

Post by empthought »

KirinDave wrote: post #205
empthought wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The derelict OS What? It has a major release every year. Arguably that's too often. > continued lockdown of OS X An indication of long-term investment in OS X. If they wanted to move people to iOS, they wouldn't bother. > UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement" There is almost no UI convergence. Do you even use an OS X system? The iPad Pro is only a potential laptop replacement for certain niches; for no…

Excuses, excuses, and fine-grained sub-classifications. OSX feels bad and stale. The store breaking only exacerbated this. Oh, and El Capitan's fucked dev experience? > There is almost no UI convergence. "Almost" being notification center which is really important and interacted with regularly, I guess.

So you don't have any actual facts to back up your earlier statement. Meanwhile in reality:

https://medium.com/backchannel/exclusive-why-apple-is-still-...

"“From the ergonomic standpoint we have studied this pretty extensively and we believe that on a desktop scenario where you have a fixed keyboard, having to reach up to do touch interfaces is uncomfortable,” says Schiller. “iOS from its start has been designed as a multi-touch experience — you don’t have the things you have in a mouse-driven interface, like a cursor to move around, or teeny little ‘close’ boxes that you can’t hit with your finger. The Mac OS has been designed from day one for an indirect pointing mechanism. These two worlds are different on purpose, and that’s a good thing — we can optimize around the best experience for each and not try to mesh them together into a least-common-denominator experience." -- Phil Schiller

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/tim-cook-apple...

"We feel strongly that customers are not really looking for a converged Mac and iPad,” said Cook. “Because what that would wind up doing, or what we’re worried would happen, is that neither experience would be as good as the customer wants. So we want to make the best tablet in the world and the best Mac in the world. And putting those two together would not achieve either. You’d begin to compromise in different ways." -- Tim Cook

You're unable to develop software using OS X. Other people do not seem to be so impaired. If you think Notification Center is an example of important UI convergence, it doesn't take much imagination to come up with possible explanations.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#207

Post by KirinDave »

empthought wrote: post #206
KirinDave wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuses, excuses, and fine-grained sub-classifications. OSX feels bad and stale. The store breaking only exacerbated this. Oh, and El Capitan's fucked dev experience? > There is almost no UI convergence. "Almost" being notification center which is really important and interacted with regularly, I guess.

So you don't have any actual facts to back up your earlier statement. Meanwhile in reality: https://medium.com/backchannel/exclusive-why-apple-is-still-... "“From the ergonomic standpoint we have studied this pretty extensively and we believe that on a desktop scenario where you have a fixed keyboard, having to reach up to do touch interfaces is uncomfortable,” says Schiller. “iOS from its start has been designed as…

Meanwhile, Tim Cook said publicly and more recently: http://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/09/tim-cook-ipad-pro-can-re...

"Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones."

So I guess maybe we should ask Tim Cook how he really feels? Maybe you should go and write increasingly smug and demeaning hacker news posts at him. I'm sure he'll be as intimidated as I am.

> "“From the ergonomic standpoint we have studied this pretty extensively and we believe that on a desktop scenario where you have a fixed keyboard, having to reach up to do touch interfaces is uncomfortable,” says Schiller.

Just an aside: what a load of absolute horseshit. Just another example of how relentlessly people fall in line with the Apple party line on experience even as experts in UX and UI say, "They are doing nearly everything wrong."

I reach up from a keyboard to a touch surface every day, and it was a revelation when I finally could. You need it maybe once an hour, but the precision of scaling and translation gestures is far greater and the operation way more natural with your hand.

So Phil's statement is either garbage or terribly dated, and independent testing bears that out. But whatever. You're saying that Apple doesn't believe the iPad Touch is a laptop replacement.

> You're unable to develop software using OS X.

No. That's not true. I just prefer not to. The SDK's first substantial change since the days of OpenSTEP was the modernizations brought on by Swift, which themselves feel dated and poorly thought out. Sadly, we don't get many other choices that can match the native look and feel. Its dated and platform locked and Apple's made sure it can't pay out well except in a few categories.

But hey, what do I know. It's not like I've been in charge of shipping successful, highly featured and widely acclaimed iOS apps... What do I know?

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#208

Post by empthought »

KirinDave wrote: post #207
empthought wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't have any actual facts to back up your earlier statement. Meanwhile in reality: https://medium.com/backchannel/exclusive-why-apple-is-still-... "“From the ergonomic standpoint we have studied this pretty extensively and we believe that on a desktop scenario where you have a fixed keyboard, having to reach up to do touch interfaces is uncomfortable,” says Schiller. “iOS from its start has been designed as…

Meanwhile, Tim Cook said publicly and more recently: http://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/09/tim-cook-ipad-pro-can-re... "Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones." So I guess maybe we should ask Tim Cook how he really feels? Maybe you should go and write increasingly smug a…

Tim Cook's comments about people using iPad Pros where they might have used notebooks before have precisely zero to do with either UI convergence or the long-term prospects for OS X.

> Just an aside: what a load of absolute horseshit. Just another example of how relentlessly people fall in line with the Apple party line on experience even as experts in UX and UI say, "They are doing nearly everything wrong."

So are you saying that they're lying about having done ergonomic research? Also, just like your "indications" comment, this is utterly unsubstantiated. Which experts? What research have they done?

> I reach up from a keyboard to a touch surface every day, and it was a revelation when I finally could.

How could that possibly be comfortable, if your display is at the recommended 25ish inch distance from your eyes and at eye level? Did you notice we're talking about "on a desktop scenario" and not a notebook?

> It's not like I've been in charge of shipping successful, highly featured and widely acclaimed iOS apps... What do I know?

Certainly not Apple's long-term plans for OS X.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#209

Post by blakeyrat »

mbell wrote: post #167
blakeyrat wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Mac Classic, if you wanted to ship a custom font with your application, you'd put it in the Resource fork in a resource of "FONT" type. So why wouldn't a stand-alone font file consist of a Resource fork with a single resource of "FONT" type? Otherwise, the OS engineers have to develop two entirely different ways of reading in font data. Why duplicate the effort? The system made perfect sense, both then and now. It…

> an amazingly well-designed OS for its time It had a few interesting ideas. But no desktop OS based on cooperative multitasking can be called 'well-designed', almost anything could hard-lock the entire system at any time.

Considering it was built for a 68000, I believe that was a reasonable decision on Apple's part.

Re: HFS+ is crazy

#210

Post by KirinDave »

empthought wrote: post #208
KirinDave wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Tim Cook said publicly and more recently: http://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/09/tim-cook-ipad-pro-can-re... "Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones." So I guess maybe we should ask Tim Cook how he really feels? Maybe you should go and write increasingly smug a…

Tim Cook's comments about people using iPad Pros where they might have used notebooks before have precisely zero to do with either UI convergence or the long-term prospects for OS X. > Just an aside: what a load of absolute horseshit. Just another example of how relentlessly people fall in line with the Apple party line on experience even as experts in UX and UI say, "They are doing nearly everything wrong." So are y…

If Tim Cook's comments I sourced about how iPad Pros can be a laptop replacement are not relevant to my original post, but your lifting of his quotes on the same subject are? Why was Schiller's unsubstantiated quotes about ergonomics relevant?

The rules you have set up for this debate are pretty one sided. Shouldn't you at least pretend to listen?

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