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24/192 music downloads make no sense

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Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you listen to pop recordings between 1950-1980, you'll notice there's more depth and character to every instrument. Yes, dynamic range compression is currently used/abused extensively in pop music productions, but if mixes weren't compressed they would have a much wider range for the sounds to play around in. Not only is Justin Bieber's My World 2.0 louder than Metallica's The Black Album, it's louder than The Sex…

that is tragically and hilarious ironic. with older songs, you can turn them up louder, then the dynamic parts really punch you. with newer songs, it's just a steady fatigue.

Yep.

Compression is an important part of both experiences. I like to think of it this way:

The soundscape has two axis, one is the overall perception of loudness, the other is the range of frequencies occupied by a given element, or track if you will, in a piece of music. In a stereo, or multi-track recording such as surround sound, there are more axis involving perception of placement, or "imaging" But the basics are all that are needed to consider this compression matter.

When you take one of those tracks, say the drum, or the bass guitar, in isolation a raw playback at volume on a reference system is going to largely reproduce what went in. So far so good.

Now, start adding the various bits and what happens?

That soundscape gets crowded! Little quiet bits you could appreciate are suddenly lost amidst all that is going on, so what to do?

Compress!

And that's a very good thing. First, few people actually have systems that can reproduce high dynamic range material in a quality way, and they don't have a listening environment that would make any sense if they did. So there is that. But more importantly, the details, subtle bits really are quiet! They will get lost, and so we compress the track overall to make sure those are present in the final mix, and pleasing to the ear too. Yes, there is a style and art to this, no doubt. But the compression really is necessary too.

A secondary reason for compression, and light processing by things like auto-tune, is to polish up a performance. Vocalist might be a little soft on part of an expression, or someone playing guitar might not deliver the same solid stroke every time. These things stand right out on a raw recording. If they get mixed in, they will get lost, or feel wrong, weak, etc... Compression can level this out and result in a solid, consistent sound. Again, the minds ear tends to want to hear this.

Ever listen to something a bit distorted and then play it back in your mind? Notice how your mind tosses out a lot of stuff, leaving you with that which you really craved? It's actually pretty difficult to recall something with high aural clarity for most people. Good production involves training the mind and the ear to actually pick this out so it can be managed into something people will really crave over and over.

One might also process things a bit too. This may be done to emphasize some characteristics of the sound with respect to the overall context of the mix. For a vocal, maybe it makes sense to punch the formant frequencies a bit, or dampen them to maximize the color and character in the vocalists vocalizations, for example. Our brain is an awesome audio machine, and it does a lot for us that recordings do not do. So we must bring those out and make them available to listeners of those recordings.

Now, comes more of the basics in the art!

What the minds ear hears is what we want to put on the record. Take that bass, compress it so that it occupies a smaller range in the loudness department (reduce it's overall dynamic range), and set it's LEVEL to one that's appropriate for it's overall contribution to the mix, which itself represents the overall perception of the music. Think two components here. The individual component of the mix, or track, has an overall dynamic range, but it also has a level at which it's present in the mix too. What makes sense here varies a lot and is highly subjective. Good production involves listening to the music and picking out what defines it as good, that which is resonant in terms of style, color, etc... A strong bass in one tune might make great sense, yet on another it might be pushed to the background more, etc... Depends.

A good producer will spread these things out in the soundscape so that the listener can hear them! Bringing up the little details, while bringing down the punch is needed to make room for it all to get in there and have an impact without fatigue or overloading the medium itself. A CD has it's limits, cassette other limits, radio still others, etc... An appropriate balance must be struck here, and that's not always optimal either.

This is what you are hearing when you listen to those older tunes, well produced. And it's damn good stuff too. You aren't wrong about it at all. Just blaming a good tool, when you should be blaming who ever is wielding it poorly.

(this is why remastered recordings exist Here's something fun. Go and get the DVD or Blu Ray of something you really like and compare it to what you might hear on the radio, or off a CD, or download. Often those are pushed out to the edges with the assumption the consumer has much better gear and or will pay for better production. Sometimes, shitty production on a CD can be avoided this way. Interestingly, some video game music gets remastered and I've heard more than a few wall of sound tracks sound great off my PS3...)

When this is done properly, the dynamic range is filled with a lot of things, each occupying their frequency range, sometimes overlapping, sometimes not, and each having an overall level that makes sense and that is aesthetically pleasing to the listener. This is why you can hear a great vocal right on top of that awesome guitar lick and drum set, despite the fact that they may be sharing a significant set of common frequency components.

Someone applied appropriate compression and some processing to make room for everything when it's mixed down into the final track. When they get it right, you don't even notice. It's just fucking good sound you crave. When they get it wrong, it's the tiring wall, or you find yourself straining to hear interesting bits that should just flow.

And I love this done well. To me, it's the most important thing I can say differentiates producers I love. Good production qualities in these areas are what makes a recording "pop" and you feel "there" No joke. This stuff, right here, is what makes a recording "immersive" for you. The sound goes right in, the audio engineers have made sure that's gonna happen, and it tickles your mind, taking you away from the fact that it's a recording.

Now, that brick wall... Take all that nice work, and listen to it on a great system, appropriate volume level, and the music will just stand out there, crisp, clear, every important part audible and enjoyable right?

Right.

A final processing layer can further crush this into a wall of sound, removing more and more of the dynamics to a point where it's all one intense thing, yet people can largely still differentiate the details! This can also be done, and likely and frequently is, in the mixing stage. But I'm mentioning it because commercial radio employs this processing extensively, due the limitations inherent in broadcast. FM, for example, has bandwidth and dynamic range / signal to noise limits that require this kind of processing to combat road and car noise.

newer digital radios are controversial, and a topic for another day, but they do not have those same limits, and can deliver the perception of a much better overall experience that many listeners will say is comparable to a CD. (it's not though, again another day)

It's the abuse that you don't like. Neither do I. Often the clowns even let it clip a little for "grit" or some other BS. That really sucks, because we don't even get the music, crushed as it is! But, let's set that ugly crime aside, and just stay with the brick wall for a moment longer.

It's all still there, LOUD, and that is tiring to you because it does not "breathe", "punch", etc... Graphically, it's a lot like cranking the gamma up on images. More subtle details stand out in more conditions, but the overall depth and feel are lost... and it's tiring to listen to, even at low volume. Our minds expectation of what things sound like can clash with this kind of excessive production, even though the first impression can be good. Producing for that initial, "wow" by maxing out the medium is, IMHO, always an ugly mistake, but the brutal truth is sales metrics select for LOUD over GREAT.

All that said, compression is good. We need it. Vocals, in particular, can very seriously benefit from appropriate compression and processing to really bring out the harmonics inherent in a great set of pipes owned by someone who knows who they are and how to express that well. But it all adds up, and it all needs that bit of compression love to make sure the good stuff isn't lost on the way into your head.

Maybe this helps a little to get at where some of the pain and fatigue really is.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#202
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dynamic range compression is an important part of the aesthetic of pop music today, like it or not. Pop hits don't sound the same without it. For this reason (unaffected by normalization on itunes/youtube) it will be slow to go away.

Did some brief Googling to see if I could participate in a blind listening test and hear the difference between 24- and 16-bit recordings. I found this instead [0], an even more interesting gap to see if you can hear the difference between 8- and 16-bit! The source song, PSY's Gagnam Style, is the epitome of modern pop. I got a 3/10 on the listening test on a decent pair of Sennheiser headphones in a quiet room. Some…

This is amazing! Thanks for linking it. 8 bits... sheesh.

I'm impressed.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall listening to a vinyl rip of Lady Gaga's first album, and found that "Pokerface" was much more enjoyable with the additional dynamic range. So I'm not sure if overcompression is necessary for newer songs, but rather that it's just what the mass market has become accustomed to because of the loudness war.

> I recall listening to a vinyl rip of Lady Gaga's first album, and found that "Pokerface" was much more enjoyable with the additional dynamic range. I was skeptical of this, so I sought out a copy on Youtube[0]. "Better" is subjective, and this is definitely lower quality overall (given the Youtube compression). But it is undeniably a very different song. I've listened to the CD version of this song countless times,…

To me it just sounds like the original song put through a high pass filter. All the subwoofer bass that makes it a dance song is just gone. That's not lack of loudness war style compression, it's mostly sounds like bad equipment.

There's a major 60hz ground loop in there, too.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#204

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

Yes, the real problem is dynamic compression. Some of it is certainly valuable and probably necessary for a good mix in most cases.

But come on people, you know what we mean: EXCESSIVE compression, which is basically EVERY popular-music recording mastered (or "remastered") since the mid-'90s.

It's depressing to see so much space wasted discussing something that's not the real problem at all. The loudness war has ruined music. Period.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#205
post #95
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dynamic range compression is an important part of the aesthetic of pop music today, like it or not. Pop hits don't sound the same without it. For this reason (unaffected by normalization on itunes/youtube) it will be slow to go away.

This is true. HDTracks.com offers one of the Green Day records with no mastering compression. Yes, it has much more dynamic range, but it sounds wrong . Compression basically emulates what our ears naturally do when hearing very loud material, so compression gives one the feeling that the music is LOUD.

Bullshit. The current state of music uses WAY TOO MUCH dynamic compression. Most engineers agree that the peak of mastering quality was the early '90s. Since then, music mastering has gone to shit.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#206
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA mentions that for recording and mastering there is a use. Furthermore, the headline implies it see the term "downloads" in the title.

Yep, I read that too. Even so, there are low-pass filters in some consumer gear that benefit from, say, 96k sampling rates and result in better quality sound. This does imply that at 44.1 or 48 they don't represent up to 20kHz properly, of course.

Lossless upsampling the 44.1 kHz recording to, say 192 kHz is trivial for the reproduction equipment. That the LPF on the reproduction end wants the DAC to run at greater than 44.1 kHz has no bearing on the sampling rate of the distribution format.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#207

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

I think you are confusing limiting with compression.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, no. Maybe if you really mangled your audio by encoding at extremely low bit rates. But in general, no.

Go find a CD that has been mastered to be just below the clipping point. (e.g. Fallujah - The Flesh Prevails) Convert it to MP3 directly, use whatever settings you want Watch as the mp3 rip is now clipping due to further compression of the dynamic range.

That's not because of dynamic range compression; it's because MP3 discards some phase and frequency information, e.g. so harmonics that wouldn't have clipped get phase shifted on top of a peak and clip.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#209
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dynamic range compression is an important part of the aesthetic of pop music today, like it or not. Pop hits don't sound the same without it. For this reason (unaffected by normalization on itunes/youtube) it will be slow to go away.

Did some brief Googling to see if I could participate in a blind listening test and hear the difference between 24- and 16-bit recordings. I found this instead [0], an even more interesting gap to see if you can hear the difference between 8- and 16-bit! The source song, PSY's Gagnam Style, is the epitome of modern pop. I got a 3/10 on the listening test on a decent pair of Sennheiser headphones in a quiet room. Some…

With these online tests, can anyone shed some light on how browser/plugin codecs come into play? I recently took Tidal's test to see if I could distinguish their lossless Flac option from 320 kbps AAC. Using a decent DAC and some Sennheiser HD202's I managed to score 0/10, which is somehow impressive.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#210
post #169

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

I've played acoustic and electric instruments for over 30 years, and recorded numerous albums. Compression is the best tool we have for accurately reproducing the musicality and emotion of a musical performance. Without compression, most recordings would be unlistenable. Don't confuse the foolishness of the loudness wars for "compression is bad". That's like saying the internet is bad because there's porn on it.

"Compression is the best tool we have for accurately reproducing the musicality and emotion of a musical performance. Without compression, most recordings would be unlistenable."

That is your artistic choice, as it should be.

"The MP3 only has 5 percent of the data present in the original recording. … The convenience of the digital age has forced people to choose between quality and convenience, but they shouldn’t have to make that choice." -- Neil Young. [0]

Not every artist wants this to happen. They have no choice and listeners get a fraction of the sound recorded. This was not the case with vinyl.

@mborch, the exact compression method is of less importance than recognising that for all the compression being discussed, is a retrograde step from vinyl. Why?

[0] http://allthingsd.com/20120131/neil-young-and-the-sound-of-m...

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