Earlier quoted context omitted.
A "fix"? This isn't a compile-time error. This is the total disenfranchisement of entire classes or groups of people. There is no patch. The "fix" involves lots of difficult work. First, we have to get people like you to understand what the problem is, which apparently is difficult to do. Then, we have to build empathy for the problems facing black people so you want to actually help them. Then we have to invest in d…
I understand the problem to be way beyond hiring in tech, so I'm trying to understand why lack of diversity in tech is being blamed on the tech community.
Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
201–210 of 227 posts
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#202This guy sort of sort of undermines the standard case for diversity: "Twitter as a platform has empowered underserved and underrepresented people. It has fomented social movements and..." Sounds like twitter is killing it for people of all ethnic groups. It's as if a bunch of White/Asian dudes can actually design algorithms that work for everyone. So, um, why do we need a non-Asian engineer? It's also worth questioni…
The implication is that diversity of experience/background/culture leads to diversity of thought and diversity of ideas. That's fairly logical and noble goal, but it ignores the idea that that same diversity of interests contributes to a different average career path. It simultaneously argues for "the same, but different". If we're going to blame the employers, can someone show me that there's a disproportionately la…
Makes sense, but I'd say it should be a disproportionately large per-capita fraction of minority engineers with similar degrees, experience, geographic location, etc, relative to white engineers with the same characteristics.
For example, if minority engineers with Stanford degrees with 7-10 years experience and living in zip codes [A, B, C, ...] are 10% unemployed and their white classmates have a 5% unemployment rate, that could be evidence of deliberate discrimination. It's important to compare like to like, otherwise you can wind up with all sorts of weird conclusions.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
So the fix is to lower hiring standards? What exactly are you promoting as a fix here?
"Lower hiring standards" is a myopic fallacy. You don't hire Jeff the amazing coder who likes to punch people in the face. Discounting the value of culture is a huge mistake. Humans work best when they are not treated as replaceable units of quantified productivity. Diverse cultures can attack problems with a broader perspective than homogenous cultures.
The problem exists in parts of the society that technology can't fix, but law and education might. It doesn't help that the criminal justice system is statistically racist and that lack of cohesive families due to the consequences of povertous conditions causes children from those families to perform less well in school.
If you want better diversity in better-paying fields, the most impactful change would be to end the war on drugs, which contributes the most to poverty and incarceration. I don't see how the tech community can do that by themselves and the full effect won't even be measurable in the tech community until a generation later.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
An actual black person in tech responds to points you and others make: https://twitter.com/polotek/status/662312638324469761
Unless I misread it, I didn't read a single thing that will help a black person today get hired.
All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconscious bias, and then realize that focusing on diversity does not compromise employee standards. Then a black person gets hired.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is remarkably different. The amount of Asians/South Asians in tech is very high. If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race. I'm sure it exists in small quantities, just like everywhere else, but I believe it's much smaller in tech than any other industry. The reason why there aren't a lot of blacks and Hispanics in tech I bel…
> If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. This shows a very poor understanding of both the history of racism and modern-day racism. > Nowhere did I discourage people from trying other solutions. When you say "X is not the right way to solve the problem" and "The real way to solve the problem is Y" you are definitely saying other solutions are less legitimate than yours. Given that this is a topic w…
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#206I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…
WOW. Haven't time to unpack all that is wrong with your response but mainly: Black people in the US can be found across all strata of society, including top/good schools. The implication that they must all be poor and in inadequate schools is ludicrous.
Part of why the diversity issue is so aggravating is because the # of qualified candidates may be relatively small, but it still significantly exceeds the # of Black candidates hired.
Likewise, stating that the only way to improve diversity is by lowering of standards is wrong. It communicates your obviously flawed perspective that Black candidates in tech are inferior.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#207I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…
I'd like to see how minority owned or run small to mid size enterprises even large have fared in hiring minorities (their own, as well as outside their own) in the "tech" field. If they can who higher rates, then it may indicate that non minority owned and run are to some extent racist, or at least not actively seeking minorities.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Sometimes correlated with gender, such as the gender income gap. You mean the one that has been shown to not exist?
> "There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. " - U.S. Department of Labor
- Any attributes not accounted for in part or in full. (Of which there are quite a lot.)
- Past sexism which impacts income in the modern day. (Sexism 30 years ago would have impacted starting incomes of people, which would have reflected up til today because one's initial compensation greatly impacts future compensation through many different factors.)
- Modern day sexism.
Given evidence such as looking at just the youngest generation and what they earn, you begin to see women not only equalizing with men in earnings, but out pacing them. This means that 5 to 7% gap is far more likely to be the first and second. And once you compare pay gaps to things like danger of the jobs chosen, you see there are many more factors that are hard to account for because people differ so much in how they view the worthiness of these factors.
Also some things often aren't accounted for. Consider that many studies looking at the pay gap compare full time work to full time work, not differentiating the difference between 37.5 hours a week (full time in government) and 80 hours a week (or even worse at a startup). BUT... even in the studies that do try to compare these, they don't compare the relevant experience gains (the person working 60 hours a week average will gain 1.5 times the experience of someone working 40 hours a week, to say nothing of the potential differences in those who go home and work on related not-work projects).
In short, once you account for all of these and look at those entering the work force, it turns out the pendulum has already swung the other way.
On a side note, there are even reports coming out that this may be impacting the dating market due to social pressures on both men and women to pair up in specific patterns (namely that the man should be making no less than the woman that he is dating and that he should be no less educated than her). While these social pressures are definitely weakening compared to past generations, they are not by any means gone yet.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
A "fix"? This isn't a compile-time error. This is the total disenfranchisement of entire classes or groups of people. There is no patch. The "fix" involves lots of difficult work. First, we have to get people like you to understand what the problem is, which apparently is difficult to do. Then, we have to build empathy for the problems facing black people so you want to actually help them. Then we have to invest in d…
I understand the problem to be way beyond hiring in tech, so I'm trying to understand why lack of diversity in tech is being blamed on the tech community.
The explanation tech companies have for not having a more diverse workforce is that the applicants are just not out there to hire. Of course, any good tech worker could take an additional five minutes to think about the problem and discover that there are ways to create the applicants, by improving the communities that will grow the applicants.
But that takes time, and money, it's hands-on and it's not easy. And overseas workers are cheap.
Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. " - U.S. Department of Labor
So that is 4.8 to 7.1 percent which can be explained by any of the following: - Any attributes not accounted for in part or in full. (Of which there are quite a lot.) - Past sexism which impacts income in the modern day. (Sexism 30 years ago would have impacted starting incomes of people, which would have reflected up til today because one's initial compensation greatly impacts future compensation through many differ…
You first claimed that there is no gender wage gap, and in the face of the evidence you're creating hypotheticals to say it's not a true gender wage gap (i.e. no true scotsman). Do you know what confirmation bias is?
[1] http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20...