What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#201

Post by AdeptusAquinas » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:18 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #193

AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument seems to be basically: is 2 really a bigger number than 1? We are 1 right now, and the rest of the world is less than 1, so isn't that proof that its better? Show me the studies that prove 2 is better than 1.

I imagine that to someone of your political persuasion, this is self evident. But humor someone who doesn't share your views and actually demonstrate (empirically for example) that you are right. I personally don't care whether the geeks who work at a given tech firm are of particular gender or race, as long as they produce quality stuff. I would care if someone couldn't get into the industry because they are X - but…

Not sure where my political orientation comes into it. Also note I am not from the US, so it is unlikely I fit into whatever weird party conceptions you have over there anyway :)

The point I was making that increasing numbers and diversity in something means more stuff is produced and there is greater innovation. It means the pool of candidates for a given role is larger, allowing better selection. This is all self-evident - as Bill Gates has said, doubling the size of your workforce cannot help but improve things.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#202

Post by tptacek » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:19 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #197

tptacek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! Here's an example I'll ruefully draw from the last company I helped manage: all-hands offsites at local breweries.

I don't understand the connection between beer and nerd culture --- or masculine culture, actually, since plenty of women I know love beer.

I wasn't trying to be gender-specific with my example, just showing how something you can do as a manager to build culture can exclude and alienate people.

(Though: I do think beer drinking trends masculine.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#203

Post by oldmanjay » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:22 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #176

oldmanjay wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to be clear, is the original wrong here geek culture? The context is a bit tricky and I'm having trouble unpacking this.

No: the comment was dramatically edited after I responded to it. You're not missing anything.

thanks! I assumed since you generally make clear sense something must have gone wrong.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#204

Post by blackguardx » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:23 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #169

blackguardx wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do companies do that? I've never experienced any embrace of "nerd culture" at any place I've worked.

Sure! Here's an example I'll ruefully draw from the last company I helped manage: all-hands offsites at local breweries.

I'm a hardware engineer. Most hardware companies are too tight fisted to have offsites (making physical things is expensive). The few that I've been on have been very tame because the last thing management wants is an offended employee.

Having an offsite at a brewery is kinda shitty because not everyone likes to drink. Did anyone try to suggest another venue?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#205

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

memu wrote: post #200

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

Premise 1: There are some innate differences that obtain between people of different sexes. Conclusion: The gender disparity in computer science is the result of innate differences between the sexes. Seems legit...

You misunderstand. I'm not making a statement on the cause of the gender disparity in computer science. I'm making a higher-order argument about why we're so apt to attribute this difference to discrimination. I hope you understand the distinction even if you disagree with my argument.

The idea is that if you believe that humans have no innate differences and you observe group differences, then you must attribute these group differences to external discrimination, and hence injustice.

If you accept that groups of humans might have innate differences, you are no longer required to attribute group differences to discrimination. Some group differences might arise from discrimination, but it's plausible that they might not.

A lot of people take it as an article of faith that there are no human group differences, so they're forced to look for discrimination in order to explain the world. For these people, no amount of evidence can prove the fairness of the CS world, since the idea that (gender disparity -> discrimination) is a necessary logical consequence of their worldview.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#206

Post by pcl » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Here's an economic rationale for diversity in hiring:

Your project's total addressable market probably includes a diverse population of people. Meanwhile, the decisions in your project are made by the folks involved in it -- maybe some PMs, hopefully some UX and design engineers, and probably some programmers. I believe that our opinions are informed in part by our environment -- as someone living in California, I come up with California-oriented solutions to problems a bit more easily than ones suited to other locations. (I think this is why Dark Sky came from a team in New York, for example.)

So, I conclude that a diverse team will come up with ideas that are broader, and as a result, solutions that help more people, than would a less-diverse team.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#207

Post by tptacek » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

blackguardx wrote: post #204

tptacek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! Here's an example I'll ruefully draw from the last company I helped manage: all-hands offsites at local breweries.

I'm a hardware engineer. Most hardware companies are too tight fisted to have offsites (making physical things is expensive). The few that I've been on have been very tame because the last thing management wants is an offended employee. Having an offsite at a brewery is kinda shitty because not everyone likes to drink. Did anyone try to suggest another venue?

Yes, or at least, the concern was raised (among the small minority of people who weren't excited about going to Three Floyds).

It's not, like, a management decision I'm super duper proud of.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#208

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:26 AM UTC

AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #199

rewqfdsa wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that in a fair world, it is necessarily the case that every profession is a microcosm of the population as a whole? Let me ask a different way: in a world where no unjustice exists, is it possible for programming to be 80% men?

Programming is a purely intellectual activity, so I would argue that there is no gender or racial advantage one way or the other. Contrast this with, for example, physical professions like professional basketball, where the faster ability to grow in fitness and strength, along with certain racial advantages with height or speed means the population tends to skew in one direction - enough so that creating separate lea…

So, for clarity: your answer to my second question is "no, such a world is inherently unfair"?

> Programming is a purely intellectual activity, so I would argue that there is no gender or racial advantage one way or the other.

Thank you for so succinctly stating the blank-slate position. I don't see any reason to agree with it. You acknowledge that there are important group differences below the neck; why should there be none above it?

> majority of programmers used to be women

I read that article too. You don't mention that "programming" back then was largely data entry.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#209

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:29 AM UTC

pcl wrote: post #206

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Here's an economic rationale for diversity in hiring: Your project's total addressable market probably includes a diverse population of people. Meanwhile, the decisions in your project are made by the folks involved in it -- maybe some PMs, hopefully some UX and design engineers, and probably some programmers. I believe that our opinions are informed in part by our environment -- as someone living in California, I co…

A diversity of technical perspectives can be helpful, but there's no reason to suppose that 1) gender diversity correlates to a diversity of technical perspectives, or that 2) to achieve a diversity of technical perspectives, we need to force the demographics of programmers to match that of the population.

If you want to increase diversity of thought, you'd be better off recruiting from schools other than Stanford and the ivys.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#210

Post by j2kun » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:31 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

hkmurakami wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field.

Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we play Weasel Escape." Ted asks how to play, and they say "How do you not know how to play? You needlefish. Needlefish!" The other boys laugh, but Ted doesn't get the joke. They walk away and Ted feels embarrassed. Over the next few days he continues trying to befriend the group of boys but they have so many inside jokes! There's one nice kid in the group that explains the jokes to Ted, but most of the time one of the other boys loudly interrupts and teases Ted for not knowing, and nobody really enjoys standing around explaining things because standing around means not playing. Ted eventually decides that the boys he's been trying to befriend aren't very nice, and that even though he enjoys playing weasel escape now that he figured out the rules, it's less degrading to spend his recess in the library playing Magic cards with the weird kids. They actually seemed excited to explain their inside jokes and how the game works.

Nobody is keeping Ted out of that group of friends. He just largely prefers not to join them. But of course, why he prefers not to join them changes the story.