A few questions: What does it mean to "leave the field"? Does that mean to no longer practice low-level work or to leave the industry entirely for another industry? If it is the former, does moving into management or another complementary area (like moving from engineering to product management) qualify as leaving the field? So what I've always been curious about is what percentage of women leave other fields? It wou…
Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
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Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#22More generally, not specific to the dear tech industry, there's been a fantastic discussion on metafilter titled "“Where’s My Cut?”: On Unpaid Emotional Labor" [1]. If you are a person who has personal/professional relationships with other people, it's probably worth a read [2]. Anyhow, I'll quote an excerpt from one of the comments: > A married man is considered (in the sociology findings) to bring "more than" one p…
Also sounds like a bias against men. Men are perfectly capable of feeding and dressing themselves. And while I don't know what exactly "cruise directing" means in this context, there is no reason to believe that men aren't also capable of doing that either. I just got out of a relationship where I handled all those responsibilities. I wasn't compensated for it, nor did I expect to be. Insofar as my own generation is…
It's more subtle: I don't think anyone is making sweeping uniform generalisations. i.e. "ALL MEN DO a" "ALL WOMEN DO b". I'm not claiming anything about specific individuals. but I am indeed claiming there is a general bias, at least in a statistical sense. For example, here's an arbitrary statistic from the UK in 2012 [1]:
> Just over one in 10 women – 13% – say their husbands do more housework than they do, while only 3% of married women do fewer than three hours a week, with almost half doing 13 hours or more.
So, given no further information about particular circumstances, if I were a betting man, I know which way I'd bet about this kind of thing.
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/mar/10/housework-gen...
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#23"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…
I'll run with your thought experiment. The article's very first example of unconscious gender bias suggests that ~2/3rds of investors prefer the same pitch delivered by a man than by a woman. So there's one example of women following your proposed approach needing to overcome structural disadvantage in order to obtain investment. The article goes on to enumerate more examples of this disadvantage, etc. I guess the po…
on a big enterprise, the kind of which people work for more than ten years, maternity leave pay is just a fraction of the whole worker working life - say you work at a company ten years, it's just about 10% of productivity lost. less if you factor days instead of months and account for not giving out bonuses nor vacation in that period)
this of course should not justify a 10% pay reduction, however it is what it is, I'm not deciding it, I'm just telling it.
in the VC worlds, a company they invest on should have a return in three years or even less. in that context, a maternity leave is a 50% productivity loss - three years is too short to absorb a leave and too long for not being at risk of being impacted by it
is this sexist? of course it is. is it fair? of course it isn't.
are there any solutions to this? well, since VC is currently male dominated and they tend not to understand the potential of a woman energy, I can't see many.
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#24Serious question: why are women so harsh to EACH OTHER? From the article: > both men and women were significantly more likely to hire a male applicant than a female applicant with an identical record. And from the linked studies: "Men only penalized female candidates for attempting to negotiate whereas women penalized both male and female candidates." And the pay rates, and drops, from here http://www.pnas.org/conten…
(i mean, yeah, that might genuinely be an interesting question to look into, but surely that isn't at the top of our list of priorities, right?)
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#25Most likely this submission will be flagged as most sexism or racism articles get flagged. Corporate American needs a major reform. US society need a major reform. Our culture and community need major reforms. The way boys and girls are raised need to be changed, the way they are educated and develop social skills and people skills need to change as well. As it is Corporate America and the Tech industry has developed…
I don't know a single person who feels the need to work that hard, and benefits and conditions for parents have never been better. It doesn't make sense for a guy who hasn't worked in 12 years to tell us how it is. Sorry you couldn't handle the stress of life and the choices you made.
Whoa. Meanness like that is not ok here. Please don't do this again.
Kicking someone when they're down makes it 10x worse.
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#26Serious question: why are women so harsh to EACH OTHER? From the article: > both men and women were significantly more likely to hire a male applicant than a female applicant with an identical record. And from the linked studies: "Men only penalized female candidates for attempting to negotiate whereas women penalized both male and female candidates." And the pay rates, and drops, from here http://www.pnas.org/conten…
-1- Women have a lower salary, therefore their anchoring point is lower.
-2- There are few women in the department, therefore every woman feels threatened by every female applicant - they are fighting for a scarce resource.
-3- The push against sexism has resulted in men overvaluing women, while women themselves have no qualms about rating other women exactly what they think they are worth (which might still be less than they should, see 1).
-4- There may be a strong correlation in women who can succeed in a male-dominated environment for sociopathic psychological traits.
-5- There may very well be correlation (though no direct causation) between gender and expected performance, which combined with 3, results in women applying an unconscious bias.
Basically, you do not have an unbiased sample and can't make generalisations from just that article.
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll run with your thought experiment. The article's very first example of unconscious gender bias suggests that ~2/3rds of investors prefer the same pitch delivered by a man than by a woman. So there's one example of women following your proposed approach needing to overcome structural disadvantage in order to obtain investment. The article goes on to enumerate more examples of this disadvantage, etc. I guess the po…
now this will sound sexist. believe me I am not - I'm just a dev and I wish we had more women in the field for reason I won't articulate here - take this as 'seen from vc eyes': on a big enterprise, the kind of which people work for more than ten years, maternity leave pay is just a fraction of the whole worker working life - say you work at a company ten years, it's just about 10% of productivity lost. less if you f…
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#28As someone who has faced situations where a gender microagression has caused workplace conflict, the above quote cannot be stressed enough. Just because you didn't have the intention to be biased or discriminate does not mean it did not happen. For some reason this concept eludes even the sharpest people.
We all have our biases. It's about time we owned up to them and put effort into mitigating them.
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#29"Confirm that men and women with the same qualifications are earning the same amount and that they are receiving promotions and raises at similar rates (and if not, explore why)."
Yeah, no. I have never worked for a company which pays employees based on skill, it's all in salary negotiations. If you work for a company where salaries aren't public, then this is the case for you. Also, although anecdotal, in my experience men are willing to risk more when they know they're worth more than what they're being paid.
Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?
#30Most likely this submission will be flagged as most sexism or racism articles get flagged. Corporate American needs a major reform. US society need a major reform. Our culture and community need major reforms. The way boys and girls are raised need to be changed, the way they are educated and develop social skills and people skills need to change as well. As it is Corporate America and the Tech industry has developed…
It's seriously a damn shame you worked yourself into a nervous breakdown. I can't possibly stress that enough.
I've spent about ten years working a couple of tech jobs. Over those years, I've probably put in a few hundred hours of OT (unpaid or otherwise). If we're pessimistic and call it an even 1k hours of OT, this means that I've spent an average of somewhere between 42 and 45 hours per week at work over my entire career so far.
I -and others in tech that I know- have never been required to work anywhere near point of burnout, let alone breakdown. Moreover, from what I understand of tech sector hiring practices during the Dot Com Era, anyone who could spell SQL and/or HTML could get a well-paying job in the industry.
Maybe those practices also included a near-universal culture of overwork, but -based on what I hear from a few folks who were working in The Valley at the time- I'm pretty certain that that's not true. If management was pressuring you to work those insane hours, you would have very probably found better treatment at another company. It seems like the lower hiring bar would have given a seasoned veteran quite some mobility during the boom. The situation after the bust is another story all together.
Since you stopped working in the industry in 2003 and claim over 25 years of industry experience, would you be so kind compare and contrast the work ethic and attitudes of tech company management during the Dot Com boom of the late 1990s to those of tech company management during the PC Boom of the 1980s and very early 1990s?
Thanks!