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New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

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21–30 of 69 posts

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#21
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I was born in Switzerland and as a child was interested in Morse telegraphy. The military paid an amateur radio course for everyone doing this. When I was 20 they realized this and put me in the electronic warfare department. Every year everyone from military has to do some repetition courses. I my department everyone was actually working on real world data during this weeks. They did regular background checks if any…

Sure, but the, the US says exactly the same thing.

The immediate questions then are:

* What exactly is "spying"? The Swiss government appears to use signals intelligence in drug interdiction and child pornography.

* How ambitious is Swiss counterterrorism? Is it a local criminal enforcement project, or a foreign policy thing?

* Is there a distinction drawn between targets of surveillance, which are usually foreign, and collateral damage to people communicating with them?

* Does that policy apply to Swiss citizens, or to anyone on Swiss soil?

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#22
post #16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany: none at all (barring extreme cases), and that's really the overwhelming mainstream opinion of German scholars. Only defenders lament it. The idea is that much harm comes from letting people walk, just because the police did an honest mistake. Or even a willful, outrageous thing. Punishing the police officer should be enough to deter such behavior. I think that it's a reasonable stance, but I'm not invested i…

Do the police officers actually get punished in Germany?

At least every prosecutor's office has a whole department dealing only with crimes committed by officials, and I guess they're not just sitting around. :-)

I believe it's just like you would expect if you knew nothing about Germany: many crimes are punished, many aren't.

For whatever reason, and yes, cronyism and a certain reluctance to prosecute does happen. But that's a null statement.

I won't claim that reality is great, I just have no reason to believe that police officers regularly get away with major infractions.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#23
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I believe that on paper, the United States is the freest and most privacy friendly place on the planet (well the paper that isn't classified). In practice not so much. Things wealthy people care about are very high privacy (financial transactions, private offshore holdings, medical records, etc) things not so wealthy people care about are basically wide open (criminal records, books you rent in a library, phone calls). We stomp all over the constitution.

Take the gay marriage debate, not once did I see someone question if the government even has a right to determine who is allowed to be married, and why is should be involved at all. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" marriage is a religious institution, seems pretty clear.

All we really have to do is fire judges (and those that appoint them) who do not uphold the constitution. This has to be for all violations, not just the ones you disagree with. Don't like guns? Pass an amendment. Don't think that 'Hate Speech' should be legal? Pass an amendment. Scared of terrorists? Pass an amendment. Until then the lawmakers and judiciary will just run roughshod over our "certain unalienable rights".

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#24
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I'm a European and I honestly have no idea how to answer to the point, but even if the law allows surveillance, there's also the question of resources; even if the laws in my country (Romania) would be worse than those in the US, our intelligence agencies are far, far less capable than the NSA and out-sourcing this is a whole different can of worms and can't ever be justified to the public, even if they are in fact doing it.

I must say that I don't believe in laws that protect my privacy. However, I do believe in using technologies for protecting my privacy. For example what I do like about the US is that you've got your Fifth Amendment which apparently applies to encryption keys. And such a protection against "Self-Incrimination" is actually the exception rather than the rule.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#25

So they're doing exactly what the NSA and GCHQ are doing but they're actually being transparent about the fact that they're doing it?

GCHQ are pretty clear what they are doing. They hover up everything they physically can regardless. If they get caught and it turns out to be illegal they get Parliament to change the law for them.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#26

It's a fair criticism. However I think it's too early to be telling startups to stay away from the Netherlands. Both because the new law may be prevented yet, and these types of laws are occurring simultaneously across most of the developed world. I'm not sure where a startup would flee to, to avoid them. I might take the opposite tact here. I'd argue instead that startups should feel perfectly comfortable making the…

The trouble once a country starts trying to pass laws like this they tend to carry on until they get through.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#27
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I believe that on paper, the United States is the freest and most privacy friendly place on the planet (well the paper that isn't classified). In practice not so much. Things wealthy people care about are very high privacy (financial transactions, private offshore holdings, medical records, etc) things not so wealthy people care about are basically wide open (criminal records, books you rent in a library, phone calls…

>marriage is a religious institution, seems pretty clear.

No one is debating marriage the religious institution, you can go have whatever private marriages you want, and religions can still discriminate. What was being debated was the somewhat different, marriage the legal entity that effects inheritance, joint custody and all the other legal benefits that spouses get. They commonly occur together but they do't have to.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#28
It's odd to see the Netherlands referred to as previously being privacy conscious.

Back in the mid 2000's I recall looking in the CIA Factbook and noting that the Netherlands intercepted more telephone calls and did more internet monitoring than just about any other country, per capita (of course "Fact" was used rather loosely in the title of that book).

Hackers in the Netherlands were introducing regular pulses into their daily internet activity and then using Fourier analysis to detect this signal in the server load of apparently well known Government buildings, believed to belong to the Dutch secret service (to what extent these rumours were true, I can't say -- I wasn't involved).

For historical reasons, the Dutch people also developed a habit of "spying" on neighbours to "make sure they were ok". This is still included in some guides for foreigners living in the Netherlands, so they don't become concerned when their neighbours begin looking in their windows.

In my stay in the Nethelands, I however learned that just about every spy agency in Europe was spying on just about everyone else in Europe. So it became clear in the end that the Dutch weren't necessarily any worse at it than everyone else. Of course, that threat seems to be greater in larger states with bigger economies. If you live anywhere else, you at least know everyone else is probably spying on you, even if your own Government is not.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#29
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

I believe that on paper, the United States is the freest and most privacy friendly place on the planet (well the paper that isn't classified). In practice not so much. Things wealthy people care about are very high privacy (financial transactions, private offshore holdings, medical records, etc) things not so wealthy people care about are basically wide open (criminal records, books you rent in a library, phone calls…

I'm married. I don't have/follow any religion.

As the sibling stated, this is mostly for law (and therefor state?) related purposes. Taxes. Shared custody. Being able to inquire about my wife's medical situation, should she end up in hospital. Inheritance. Shared property ownership.

Religion is an entirely unrelated, orthogonal (and private, i.e. I agree that the state should have no say here) concept.

Re: New law proposal makes The Netherlands privacy-unfriendly

#30
post #6

I know that this is a tricky question to engage with on HN, but is there a major-market country in Europe --- say, from the list of Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, and Finland --- that is fundamentally more privacy-friendly than the US, in black-letter terms? US privacy laws have loopholes you can drive a truck through. But the limite…

There are several forms of privacy here and it's important to make the distinction before arguing about what country has the better laws.

One form of privacy is about what information the government is allowed to gather about its citizens and what citizens can do about it. Before Snowden many would have argued that this is the US's strong point because of things like the 4th Amendment. Post-Snowden it is pretty evident that these rights have been hollowed out to the point where they have become meaningless.

The next form of privacy is about what information companies can collect and what you can do about that. In the US this is practically non-existent. It's the anti-thesis to the business models of lots of big companies like Facebook and Google. In Germany by comparison a company is legally required to inform you (in print, if requested) what information about you it has on records, who it has passed this information on to and to delete all of that information permanently at the end of a business relationship (e.g. if you want to delete your account). What's more, you have to give explicit consent to how your data is processed and used (this is why the TOS opt-in is legally necessary -- oh, and a TOS can not contain any unreasonable or unexpected clauses either).

The third form is about protecting your privacy against society. This tends to vary even within the same jurisdiction depending on who you are -- the protections may be different for persons of interest (including celebrities and politicians) or even depend on the situation (e.g. the privacy of a police officer may only be protected when they are off duty).

I'm German, so I'm obviously biased, but I can try to offer a nuanced explanation why I think German privacy laws are stronger than American privacy laws.

As I already said, companies require your ongoing consent to handle your personally identifiable information. In many cases, companies also have to be a privacy officer whose role is to oversee how that information is processed and to protect the privacy of customers or users. Of course there is a conflict of interest but misbehaviour can mean they are breaking the law (much like an accountant breaking the law because a higher-up tells them to).

In reverse, every commercial actor on the Internet (where criteria for commercial actions can be as simple as "receiving any money whatsoever" even if it's banner ads that barely cover your expenses) is legally required to provide contact information including a summonable postal address. This can be considered a limitation of privacy but also ensures users/customers can actually make use of their rights afforded by consumer protection laws. In other words: German law distinguishes between a right to privacy and a right to anonymity (the latter of which is not legally guaranteed by German law).

In terms of privacy from the government, Germany sadly shares the troubling problems of the US. Furthermore, thanks to post-war agreements (and follow-ups to those original agreements), several countries including the US basically have a carte blanche, especially when it comes to spying on German citizens. There is a cognitive dissonance between what Germans tend to think the government is allowed to do and what it actually does (and legally so, it seems) but both the Verfassungsschutz (the domestic security agency) and the BND (the foreign intelligence agency) have come under public scrutiny for worrying behaviour and potential corruption -- in the case of the Verfassungsschutz there is a strong indication that the agency focusses on left-wing extremists while blatantly ignoring the far more active right-wing extremists, either because of we actually had a left-wing terrorist organization in the past (the Baader-Meinhof group) or because it has an unfair systemic right-wing bias itself.

Finally, a lot of the paparazzi style "journalism" is illegal in Germany although there is a lot of leeway for celebrities and politicians ("Personen der Zeitgeschichte"). We don't have perp walks (though there have been episodes of an attempted "Americanization" of celebrity trials in Germany -- luckily heavily criticized in the parts of the media that didn't engage in it). If a friend shares a picture of you on Facebook they are legally required to take it down (as is Facebook) if you don't want it to be public and you can even sue for damages where appropriate (though good luck with that as the money you can get out of suing for damages in Germany is pennies on the dollar compared to the US).

I should also mention that every German adult has to have an ID card (with a biometric photo) and inform their local civic center whenever their address changes (to ensure there is always an official record of a summonable address). Contrary to popular belief you're not legally required to carry the ID card (unless you're driving a motor vehicle, in which case you also need to carry your driver's license and papers for the vehicle and have a valid license plate). In turn you don't have to register to vote (you will automatically be sent the documents you need to bring in when casting your vote as well as a form to sign up for a postal vote if you can't be at the voting center on that day).

Oh, and before I forget: unlike the special protection medical and legal confidentiality get, the banking confidentiality is not impenetrable in Germany. I don't think clerical confidentiality is either, but Germany's church-state separation leaves a lot to be desired (the ruling political party actually has "Christian" in the name and Merkel repeatedly said that Europe is founded on Christian values, the government collects church tax as an actual tax and pays up to 100% of the operating costs of "church-owned" hospitals, schools and so on -- I could go on for hours but the situation is pretty dire even if there isn't much public awareness of it).

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