Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise • Hacker News Board

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#21

Post by blfr » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:42 PM UTC

Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. And, of course, prior information should change the way you view new information. I don't see how it can do more harm than good if you can do better than chance. Neither would I be so confident that I can do better than millions of years of evolution, especially by reading resumes.

We can guess what particular traits make people seem less trustworthy. For example, supposedly men with wider faces are more likely to act immorally (deceive, cheat). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21733897

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#22

Post by toolsadmin » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #19

toolsadmin wrote: post #11

More PC rubbish. Soon we'll all have to wear brown paper bags over our heads and speak through a gender-neutral, computer generated microphone voice lest someone gets upset or gets an "unfair" advantage.

The article didn't suggest that people with more "desirable" faces do anything to prevent an unfair advantage. It merely brought to attention a universal prejudice, with a suggestion that people, especially those making decisions wrt employment, be aware of the prejudices, so that they don't unfairly disadvantage candidates, and so that they don't dismiss someone who might be a better candidate solely on the basis of…

Sure it did. How about here: “The question is, do we want to spend government money protecting bad looking people when – it’s my personal view – other groups merit more attention?”

Thats as much of a hint on government regulation as it can be.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#23

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:49 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #15

zachb wrote: post #4

The author completely glosses over a crucial fact: an individual's face is representative of the lifestyle that he or she lives. Fat; thin; tan; pale; bearded; bald. Is your hair buzzed military grade, or does it spill over your shoulders? Do you take care of your skin? Do you wax your eyebrows? Our faces certainly tell some sort of story, but there's more to it than bone structure and brow size.

Absolutely. I'd also add that your face is a reflection of your personality and average emotional temperature. Your "neutral expression" will, over many years of muscle memory and habit, settle into some particular arrangement. People who tend toward bitterness, mistrust, anger, or anxiety - will look it, and inspire vague anxiety in anyone who deals with them. If, on the other hand, your neutral expression broadcast…

> People who tend toward bitterness, mistrust, anger, or anxiety - will look it

This is total pseudo-science, like a modern phrenology. Your resting face and how that's interpreted is meaningless. For example, in some cultures no one smiles in photos and smiling at others on the street or in the workplace is a very weird thing to do, but here in the US its extremely common. If an American went to one of those cultures, he'd think everyone was an angry murderer.

Not to mention, many cheery and upbeat men and women having what's comically called "resting bitch face." They just don't look particularly cheery when not making an expression, usually people with "ethnic" features like deeply set eyes, chubbier jowls, wider faces, darker eyes, natural 'bags' under eyes, etc that compared to an Anglo person makes them look angry or annoyed. As someone with this ethnicity (Mediterranean descent) its something I have to constantly work on as to not intimidate others.

I think your take on things is a very "white" and Western view. Different cultures and ethnicity have different facial standards and its impossible to make broad statements like these.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#24

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:55 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #21

Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. And, of course, prior information should change the way you view new information. I don't see how it can do more harm than good if you can do better than chance. Neither would I be so confident that I can do better than millions of years of evolution, especially by reading resumes. We can guess wh…

"This gene causes this $complex_behavior" is practically modern phrenology. These types of studies are questionable and controversial. Not to mention unethical behaviors are often cultural constructs that in one culture is fine (being gay in the US) and another considered unethical (being gay in Russia.)

Not too long ago many scientists, including HN's beloved Nikola Tesla, were loudly advocating for further and deeper eugenics laws because "obviously" the negro or the Jew was a sub-human. We're still seeing some of this today with "genetics" replacing "characteristics."

>"As sex differences in facial structure, generally, are at least partially due to increased testosterone concentrations in boys, testosterone likely plays a role in determining facial WHR, specifically, as well."

This is more academia-led "War on Boys." This kid has extra testosterone? He must be a rapist or a murderer. Shame the "rational scientific" crowd never seems to show skepticism at truly questionable research because it was published somewhere, so it must be true!

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#25

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

zachb wrote: post #4

The author completely glosses over a crucial fact: an individual's face is representative of the lifestyle that he or she lives. Fat; thin; tan; pale; bearded; bald. Is your hair buzzed military grade, or does it spill over your shoulders? Do you take care of your skin? Do you wax your eyebrows? Our faces certainly tell some sort of story, but there's more to it than bone structure and brow size.

>face is representative of the lifestyle that he or she lives. Fat; thin; tan; pale; bearded; bald.

That completely ignores congenital conditions, skin diseases, losing the genetic lottery, etc. There are a lot of people who lead truly shitty lives and who look great and vice-versa. I think we're buying way too much into genetic determinism here and this all sounds like shades of eugenics.

Its incredible that even geeks buy into "Prettier people are better people" silliness.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#26

Post by dottedmag » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

So, how to beat the game then? Say, an instruction how to apply a touch of makeup before going to the business meeting or to the interview.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#27

Post by cafard » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 3:59 PM UTC

zachb wrote: post #4

The author completely glosses over a crucial fact: an individual's face is representative of the lifestyle that he or she lives. Fat; thin; tan; pale; bearded; bald. Is your hair buzzed military grade, or does it spill over your shoulders? Do you take care of your skin? Do you wax your eyebrows? Our faces certainly tell some sort of story, but there's more to it than bone structure and brow size.

Bald is representative of my life span, but of my lifestyle only to the extent that it has helped me to live to be old enough to lose the hair.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#28

Post by Thriptic » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 4:00 PM UTC

carlmcqueen wrote: post #13

This article seems to be talking out the reality that our brains handle the big data of life by generalization, ignoring that in small samples things can be quite different than the group average. When I see a big, tattoo covered individual I feel more nervous than unmarked, average sized individuals. Having grown up with a sister who eventually majored in photography I know plenty of tattoo'd people who are amazing…

> When I see a big, tattoo covered individual I feel more nervous than unmarked, average sized individuals. Having grown up with a sister who eventually majored in photography I know plenty of tattoo'd people who are amazing people and often artistic and creative, but my brain still sends the signals.

I'm a fairly large individual, and I discovered recently that my resting face is normally somewhat of a scowl. I've had instances where I will be walking around a neighborhood which I feel somewhat nervous and unsafe in only to have people walk across the street when they see me coming. I was perplexed by this until I realized much to my amusement that I am actually the type of person that people are afraid of bumping into based on appearances, and so my fear was unjustified.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#29

Post by jdbernard » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 4:00 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #23

m_fayer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I'd also add that your face is a reflection of your personality and average emotional temperature. Your "neutral expression" will, over many years of muscle memory and habit, settle into some particular arrangement. People who tend toward bitterness, mistrust, anger, or anxiety - will look it, and inspire vague anxiety in anyone who deals with them. If, on the other hand, your neutral expression broadcast…

> People who tend toward bitterness, mistrust, anger, or anxiety - will look it This is total pseudo-science, like a modern phrenology. Your resting face and how that's interpreted is meaningless. For example, in some cultures no one smiles in photos and smiling at others on the street or in the workplace is a very weird thing to do, but here in the US its extremely common. If an American went to one of those culture…

> This is total pseudo-science, like a modern phrenology.

How do we know? I haven't heard of any studies that compare people's first impressions against the person's actual disposition or personality.

For example, this article pointed out that honesty was a trait people tend to read from faces, but it didn't ask the question: are people's reading accurate? It assumes that an honest-looking face has no bearing on a person's actual integrity, but maybe it does. We haven't actually measured.

To be clear: I'm not trying to agree or disagree with you, just point out that we don't have any strong evidence either way. As far as I know both positions are unsupported scientifically.

Re: Others may be unconsciously judging your features in ways you don't realise

#30

Post by gwern » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 4:02 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #12

zachb wrote: post #4

The author completely glosses over a crucial fact: an individual's face is representative of the lifestyle that he or she lives. Fat; thin; tan; pale; bearded; bald. Is your hair buzzed military grade, or does it spill over your shoulders? Do you take care of your skin? Do you wax your eyebrows? Our faces certainly tell some sort of story, but there's more to it than bone structure and brow size.

The entire article is about how bone structure can make a difference about how others perceive us, even if everything else is the same. The first sentence of the article gives a hypothetical of non-identical twins with the same exact lifestyle.

> a hypothetical of non-identical twins with the same exact lifestyle.

Which is a ridiculous hypothetical on the face of it. Non-identical twins, fraternal twins, are hardly more similar than siblings are. And siblings can differ quite a bit. Even if they somehow wound up the same on a few measured characteristics, they will still be rather different on many other characteristics and the hypothetical shows nothing.