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Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#21

Post by clickok »

This is an interesting study, but would likely benefit from some additional research[0][1].

From a journalistic perspective, though, the article on the study is terrible. Not merely because of the way it jumps to conclusions from a single study (the discourse on Reddit/Twitter is likely to be somewhat different than in Halo 3), but because the article itself was about online harassment, and yet the only figure they deigned to include was about the number of positive comments.

If you look at the graphs for negative statements[2], you find that although female voices provoke slightly more negative comments for low amounts of deaths, male voices get significantly more negative comments when the death count is higher. This is not as easily to interpret.

0. The actual study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

1. For example, does this trend persist in games that are not "boys games"? We assume that the majority of Halo 3 players are men, but is there any difference between how men and women comment to perceived men and women? Why did they not include the control (playing without voice chat) as a baseline?

2. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=l...

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#24

Post by BrandoElFollito »

I did not read the study, but the one chart in the article (which, I assume is supposed to reinforce the message) is over - interpreted. What I see is that mm relationship status the same and mf gets better with skill. I interpret it as better men looking for women to mate with. The not so good ones do not even try. Now, if the chart was about negative behaviour then it would make sense for the article.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#25

Post by wpietri »

golemotron wrote: post #7
wpietri wrote: post #2

Seems totally plausible to me. And it goes well with this paragraph from a recent Jon Ronson interview[1]: "I once interviewed a prison psychiatrist, James Gilligan, who told me that every murderer he treated was harbouring a central secret – which was that they felt humiliated. 'I have yet to see a serious act of violence that was not provoked by the experience of feeling shamed or humiliated, disrespected and ridic…

That should give pause to people who attempt to shame others to enact social change.

No, no it shouldn't. The reason we have patriarchy at all is millennia of male violence. Your notion that people should avoid pushing for social change because guys may hurt or kill them is a) abhorrent, and b) exactly why we need the social change.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#26

Post by wpietri »

danharaj wrote: post #8
wpietri wrote: post #2

Seems totally plausible to me. And it goes well with this paragraph from a recent Jon Ronson interview[1]: "I once interviewed a prison psychiatrist, James Gilligan, who told me that every murderer he treated was harbouring a central secret – which was that they felt humiliated. 'I have yet to see a serious act of violence that was not provoked by the experience of feeling shamed or humiliated, disrespected and ridic…

> It's things like this that make it really obvious that we're primates, hardwired for status. Or maybe it's an indicator that our incredibly hierarchical society inflicts psychological violence on people because it holds them to conform to impossible shapes in order to fit into the system. I have a lot of contempt for any abductive reasoning that explains Western Capitalist society with unobservable primordial deter…

One, I agree that biology is not destiny. (Indeed, I believe I said the opposite.)

Two, I agree that our current society is a mess, and share your desire that it be made better.

That said, I have never seen a primatologist suggest that we aren't wired for status. Certainly our closest relatives, chimpanzees, are. (See, e.g., de Waal's Chimpanzee Politics.)

I think it's important to acknowledge that tendency if we want to make the world less of a mess. For example, consider how we deal with a different inbuilt tendency: violence. We know that all humans can be violent, which is why children are taught early and often that violence is wrong. It's why we have a whole system of customs and laws that constrain violent behavior. We, as a culture, are working to eliminate it, but we can't do that by pretending it isn't part of our nature.

I think we should do the same for status. Rather than constructing a system that, as you say, helps the privileged maintain their sense of status, we to acknowledge that an irrational drive for status is part of our roots, and to build a society that helps us overcome that.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#27

Post by dudul »

spcoll wrote: post #15

Of course they are. My own findings corroborate this. My personal theory is that the reason the tech industry is so hostile towards women is that it is mostly comprised of "nerds" and "geeks" who, being lower-status in society while usually being part of the dominant group (white men), are much more likely to be aggressive towards people not part of that group, women and people of color.

It's been quite a while that nerds and geeks are not lower status in our society.

Everyone claims to be a geek just for the hype. Superheroes movies are the most profitable, the video game industry is enormous.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#28

Post by wpietri »

littletimmy wrote: post #12

This is shitty journalism at its worst. The study presented a very conservative finding, which is that men who lose in online games are more likely to be hostile, particularly towards those they don't think are in the in-group. That is understandable. The journalist in question extrapolated it to Reddit, Twitter, 4chan, and god knows what else. All the while making huge conjectures about how this means all harassers…

I don't think you're clear on how journalism works.

News pieces report relatively factual material. That's the first part of what you identify. But then there are other kinds of writing that also appear in newspapers. [1] This in particular is from their blog The Intersect [2], which is cultural commentary focused on the Internet. It is written by their "digital culture critic". [3]

So cultural commentary is exactly this person's job. And I don't think it's a giant stretch extrapolating research about men harassing women online to... men harassing women online. Of course, you could be right: some online harassers may also be high-status winners sending out semi-literate email screeds from their mansions and yachts and whatnot.

So no, this isn't shitty journalism. It would be a shitty news piece if it were a news piece. But since it's not, I'd call it a decent commentary piece.

[1] Hopefully this isn't too big a surprise; this is literally what they tell fifth graders about journalism. E.g.: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/english/creativewr... or http://www.dispatchnie.com/content/pages/types-of-articles/t...

[2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/

[3] I learned all this by a) clicking on the big title at the topic of the column, and b) clicking on the writer info at the bottom. Next time if you're wondering what sort of article you're reading, those are good places to start.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#29

Post by golemotron »

wpietri wrote: post #25
golemotron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That should give pause to people who attempt to shame others to enact social change.

No, no it shouldn't. The reason we have patriarchy at all is millennia of male violence. Your notion that people should avoid pushing for social change because guys may hurt or kill them is a) abhorrent, and b) exactly why we need the social change.

Where did I say that people should avoid pushing for social change? I pointed out the effect of a tool: shaming. It's bad for people and as the article says it can lead to violence.

Social change is good. Shaming is a bad tool.

Re: Men who harass women online are quite literally losers, new study finds

#30

Post by wpietri »

golemotron wrote: post #29
wpietri wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no it shouldn't. The reason we have patriarchy at all is millennia of male violence. Your notion that people should avoid pushing for social change because guys may hurt or kill them is a) abhorrent, and b) exactly why we need the social change.

Where did I say that people should avoid pushing for social change? I pointed out the effect of a tool: shaming. It's bad for people and as the article says it can lead to violence. Social change is good. Shaming is a bad tool.

Please describe three social changes you are making happen and your shame-free techniques.
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