A successful academic faces lifelong debt • Hacker News Board

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#21

Post by sschronk » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:40 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #12

hegemonicon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I'd like to know - how LITTLE does an assistant professor make that 60,000 dollars of debt will take a lifetime to pay off, even in the absence of a mortgage (and presumably a car) payment?

Assistant professors in humanities (even at an Ivy League school) don't make much money.

There is no demand for Humanities professors. Look at the job boards of the colleges and most of them are hiring either science, math or nursing professors.

Also this person seems to have studied a fringe subject that would have a far weaker demand.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#22

Post by jon_dahl » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:40 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #2

Maybe being an assistant professor of Native American studies is a lifestyle choice to be indulged in by people who are either married to or descended from people who did commercially valuable work? The engineering department has spots available for us kids who have to work for a living.

You're basically saying that a humanities education doesn't have professional value. I disagree completely. A lot of employers (myself included) would rather hire someone with a philosophy or history major than a business major. For many careers, a corresponding college major is 80% useless and 100% unnecessary.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#23

Post by hapless » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:40 PM UTC

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #16

likpok wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, if you make more than that you are better off hiring someone to clean for you. Realistically, if an hour of free time is worth $25 (and to many people it seems that it is), you should go for it.

I agree. However, with all the bitching about how bad it is to be "poor" in America, there ought to be people standing on the sidewalks in nice communities advertising their cleaning services if they can get these prices. It's worth it, but I question why the market clearing price isn't lower.

Because cleaning ladies don't sell cleaning. They sell trustworthiness. You have to be able to trust this woman to spend a lot of time in your home, without supervision.

Anyone can clean. Only some people can be trusted.

This is the same reason that bank tellers are paid a lot more than Wal-mart cashiers.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#24

Post by jnovek » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:40 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #9

jnovek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, doing what you love should be a privilege reserved for the affluent! She was a fool to dream beyond her class; thankfully, she's paying for it now. I hope it stands as a lesson to others.

I know you were being sarcastic, but this is 100% true. Doing what you love, instead of what is useful, is a privilege, not a right.

Do you do what you love? Then you must be very lucky. I know that I thank my lucky stars every day that what I love doing also happens to be fabulously lucrative.

It disgusts me that we live in one of the most wealthy societies in the world and arbitrary criteria, such as the class or gender you were born with, still determine much about your ability to succeed in and enjoy life.

Rhetorical question of self-examination: how would you feel if she were a math professor instead? Being an academic mathematician is just as self-indulgent as anything in the humanities.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#25

Post by jon_dahl » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:43 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #9

jnovek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, doing what you love should be a privilege reserved for the affluent! She was a fool to dream beyond her class; thankfully, she's paying for it now. I hope it stands as a lesson to others.

I know you were being sarcastic, but this is 100% true. Doing what you love, instead of what is useful, is a privilege, not a right.

This is true for many people. But if you have a choice - and large portions of the world do - you're better off being underpaid and enjoying your work, than being paid well and hating it.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#26

Post by indiejade » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:52 PM UTC

jon_dahl wrote: post #22

patio11 wrote: post #2

Maybe being an assistant professor of Native American studies is a lifestyle choice to be indulged in by people who are either married to or descended from people who did commercially valuable work? The engineering department has spots available for us kids who have to work for a living.

You're basically saying that a humanities education doesn't have professional value. I disagree completely. A lot of employers (myself included) would rather hire someone with a philosophy or history major than a business major. For many careers, a corresponding college major is 80% useless and 100% unnecessary.

would rather hire someone with a philosophy or history major than a business major

Why? Business is essentially just economics, which is history (macroeconomics) + philosophy (microeconomics with a little bit of sociology and psychology thrown in). The day YC News readers stop throwing their own feces at business majors will be a fascinating one indeed.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#27

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:53 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #2

Maybe being an assistant professor of Native American studies is a lifestyle choice to be indulged in by people who are either married to or descended from people who did commercially valuable work? The engineering department has spots available for us kids who have to work for a living.

How dare you. This person did work to get where she is - did you miss all the stuff about working as a waitress and a cleaner? Obviously, you don't consider Native American studies valuable because it's a field with limited commercial application. And so you equate this perceived lack of value with a lack of willingness on her part to do any work, a faulty syllogism if ever I've seen one.

I understand that you believe her field of study to be an unwise economic choice, such that the cost of acquiring her expertise exceeds the commercial potential. To me the problem is that even though students are paying more than ever for school, the perceived value of educators continues to fall. a story like 'girl starts out poor, gets PhD and job at top university' ought to be an inspiration, but now apparently we have to tack on '...stays poor because she picked some frou-frou field of study I don't approve of'.

MBA culture has fucked this country up really badly.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#28

Post by mixmax » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:57 PM UTC

sschronk wrote: post #10

I'm a college professor myself. It is a thankless job. You spend more than 20 years in school, washing dishes, working at a dead end job waiting for that moment when you finally get to teach. My teaching job pays about $30.00/Hr. However I only get to work about 25 hours a week or so. It's not much money to live on. Also realize the pressures of college teaching: Society needs you to teach skills to the students that…

I think this is a huge problem for America.

It's a political problem because a working democracy requires smart people that are able to understand complex issues and cast their vote accordingly. As an outsider it's probably easier to see, but American politics has turned into a farce where political issues matter much less than appearances on the right talkshows and hitting the lowest common denominator. The press has to play along with this, if they don't nobody will read their newspapers or see their newscasts. Jon Stewart, a comedian, is often seen as one of the best political reporters in the country.

It's an economic problem because in the future (and now) we have to be pretty darn smart to compete in the international arena, and India, China, etc. are basically eating Americas lunch.

Education is one of the best and most important investments a country can make, and to be frank I think it's despicable that a college professor doesn't make more than you do.

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#29

Post by pwnstigator » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 6:59 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #9

jnovek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, doing what you love should be a privilege reserved for the affluent! She was a fool to dream beyond her class; thankfully, she's paying for it now. I hope it stands as a lesson to others.

I know you were being sarcastic, but this is 100% true. Doing what you love, instead of what is useful, is a privilege, not a right.

It's a good thing we have large, inefficient, hierarchical corporations. Having most working people doing things they hate that are also pretty useless really puts the damn proles in their place. (Sarcasm, obviously.)

Re: A successful academic faces lifelong debt

#30

Post by jon_dahl » Wed, Dec 09, 2009, 7:02 PM UTC

indiejade wrote: post #26

jon_dahl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're basically saying that a humanities education doesn't have professional value. I disagree completely. A lot of employers (myself included) would rather hire someone with a philosophy or history major than a business major. For many careers, a corresponding college major is 80% useless and 100% unnecessary.

would rather hire someone with a philosophy or history major than a business major Why? Business is essentially just economics, which is history (macroeconomics) + philosophy (microeconomics with a little bit of sociology and psychology thrown in). The day YC News readers stop throwing their own feces at business majors will be a fascinating one indeed.

IMHO, giving a Management or Marketing class to a 20 year old is like learning a foreign language from a textbook, without ever speaking with a native. You're better off spending 1 year actually doing it than 4 years studying.

Studying history, philosophy, literature, art, etc. helps you learn how to think and communicate. Someone who knows how to think and communicate can pick up business or programming easily enough, and can consult formal training when they're ready for it (which is rarely at the age of 20).

These aren't absolutes, of course - there are plenty of philosophy majors who can't think their way out of a cardboard box, and plenty of business majors who think really well.