Ask HN: Is age an issue? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#21

Post by Poiesis » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 5:57 PM UTC

Age is not an issue[1]. Ability is an issue. Experience is an issue.

You could be 60 years old and have just started learning software development last year. The funny part? That still doesn't necessarily tell you much about the ability level. A year of development experience does tend to put an upper limit on how experienced you would say this hypothetical 60 year old newbie is, but it does definitely depend on his/her existing skills and education.

Or you could be Don Knuth, he's 71 right now.

Or, you could be a 60 year old who never got a good education and doesn't care to.

Knowing someone's age tells you how long it's been since they popped out of their mom. That's it.

[1]: Obviously there are people who judge based on age, regardless of legal, moral, or practical reasons not to. What I mean is that age, on its own, doesn't mean much.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#22

Post by frankus » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 5:59 PM UTC

I'm still a bit of a spring chicken compared to you, but my biggest stumbling block (at least in the relatively tiny technical job market where I live) is that interesting generalist jobs don't pay as well as older (i.e. not just out of college) employees are used to.

The high pay is restricted to employees of big, boring companies and the occasional startup that wants to hire a guru in some very specific narrow field.

That's not a problem in itself, but as one becomes accustomed to a higher salary, one's expenses tend to grow correspondingly: creature comforts have a way of turning into necessities, possessions accumulate in way that makes a smaller living space impractical, and dependents and stakeholders multiply.

So to the extent that you're competing on price with low-expenses no-family just-out-of-college folks, you're at a disadvantage. You need to make and keep yourself valuable in the other areas employers might look at.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#23

Post by Ixiaus » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 6:47 PM UTC

One of my most valued mentors is in his late fifties. He was easily one of the top programmers in his field at the time. He can still carry conversations with me about LISP, Fortran, and C programming as well as PHP, MySQL, and AJAX development.

He does lack in a few areas where the industry is really nascent; but for the most part he is 'caught up'. But it isn't because he memorizes APIs, it's because he as a vested interest in undertanding the how and the why of things; that one feature of his intellect is the most inspiring for me. He picks new languages up in days, not months, because he understands the fundamentals better than anyone I know.

Focus on the how and the why and you will have all of us youngins beat. The only reason younger people may be ahead is because we aren't "set in our ways"; unset yourself and be a bit younger. It does wonders for older people to realize that they can still have dynamic lives.

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#24

Post by Travis » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 6:47 PM UTC

One bias that might be working against you is actually your longevity in the field. Coding turns over quickly; lots of programmers move to other fields or move up the ranks. To a lot of hiring managers, staying in the same career for a long time indicates an unwillingness or inability to try new things. For a secretary position, not such a big deal. For a fast field like programming, appearing static is definitely a problem (unless you're in a niche field).

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#25

Post by clueless123 » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 7:21 PM UTC

qeorge wrote: post #19

There's advantages and disadvantages to older coders. The biggest disadvantages are that you have a family and responsibilities, and your health insurance is a lot more expensive. If you're a great programmer, who's interested in learning new technologies, that's not such a big deal. But honestly, your "when google is one click away" comment is not signaling those qualities.

Actually... if you do things right from the beginning, things like money, health insurance and family responsibilities are much more of a factor on your 30's than on your 50's (If you plan right..)

With reference to Googling stuff comment.. are you saying that you never use reference sources?

IMHO, When you have a large breath of knowledge that you need to use, it makes no sense to memorize it.

If I am supporting up a framework that uses spring, I refer to the docs once or twice, then it stays with me for the duration of the project.. six months later I am building an app using Python,mplayer,ffmpeg & wxPython and for the life of me there is now way I can tell you straight-off-my-head how to configure the hibernate SqlMapClient-what's his face thingy! give me 5 minutes, I'll look it up and i'll be done & tested in 20 mins.

I could go on and on on this to technologies that have not been used since before most of you where born.. (how many of you remember IRQ14 ?)

The point is: Some things are timeless (vi ?) and I know them solid.. some others, I refer to use and let go.

I am totally curious.. How about you guys? Do most people remember api specific stuff for ever ?

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#26

Post by bigtech » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 8:54 PM UTC

My TRS-80 had 4K, so the Basic language used one-letter abbreviations for all the commands. I tried learning Z80 on it, but it was a bit too tough for me; 6502 was a breeze in comparison. fwiw, stick with it if you enjoy it!

Re: Ask HN: Is age an issue?

#27

Post by qeorge » Thu, Dec 03, 2009, 9:23 PM UTC

clueless123 wrote: post #25

qeorge wrote: post #19

There's advantages and disadvantages to older coders. The biggest disadvantages are that you have a family and responsibilities, and your health insurance is a lot more expensive. If you're a great programmer, who's interested in learning new technologies, that's not such a big deal. But honestly, your "when google is one click away" comment is not signaling those qualities.

Actually... if you do things right from the beginning, things like money, health insurance and family responsibilities are much more of a factor on your 30's than on your 50's (If you plan right..) With reference to Googling stuff comment.. are you saying that you never use reference sources? IMHO, When you have a large breath of knowledge that you need to use, it makes no sense to memorize it. If I am supporting up…

Regarding API docs, I'm certainly not saying I have all APIs memorized, or that you're approach is bad. Its just that the comment you posted sounds like past employers have asked you to learn things and you've resisted. I suppose its actually the "I don't see the value" part of that sentence that bothers me more. Also, I was saying that it sends a bad signal, not that it necessarily means you're not intellectually curious.

I absolutely agree that some things are timeless, and the breadth of knowledge an experienced programmer has is their primary advantage. It just seemed obvious, and you were more interested in disadvantages.

Anyway, just some constructive criticism from a 27-year old business owner. Best of luck.