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Depression's Upside (2010)

nytimes.com

21–30 of 88 posts

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing. Sometimes it isn't entirely obvious what exactly is causing the depression, but if you evaluate all aspects of your life and ask yourself "is this what I really want?", you will eventually figure it out. Utter crap. If I thought long and hard enough, my depre…

[deleted]

> I think depression has a similar role.

Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning.

Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all.

So where is your evidence, your clinical studies, your field observations? Anything. You've said that you believe clinical depression--a serious and even deadly disease--is caused by the brain trying to tell you there is something you need to change in your life, and given zero evidence for it. You've barely even motivated it.

Under those circumstances, one either has to assume bad faith, or an astonishing level of hubris and myopia. I'd say the person who responded to you was being rather generous, given what you've said is equivalent to, "It just makes sense to me that your cancer is just your body's way of saying that you need to change something important in your life, at least in the cases I've seen."

Anecdata ("the cases I've seen") is not evidence for anything, because we all know that humans are terrible observers and prone to confirmation bias and other problematic behaviours, so telling us "no really I saw this!" is not evidence of anything except what a naive observer believes, and again: that kind of thinking is what informed pre-scientific medicine for thousands of years, resulting in a vast amount of misery and very few effective treatments.

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing. Sometimes it isn't entirely obvious what exactly is causing the depression, but if you evaluate all aspects of your life and ask yourself "is this what I really want?", you will eventually figure it out. Utter crap. If I thought long and hard enough, my depre…

[deleted]

Depression affects about 4-12% of the people -- depending on how you look at the numbers -- not insignificant. What you seem to be talking about is not major depression. I grant it may be an interesting theory for some mild depressions, although I'd prefer to see some evidence presented. To suggest it to someone who has actual, clinical depression can come off as offensive and patronising, thus the kind of response you received from Devthrowaway80.

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#23
post #2

In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.

This looks interesting! Do you have any articles, papers etc. I can read?

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinica…

[deleted]

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#25
post #5

I read an interesting paper a few years back showing a correlation between low(er) rates of depression in population areas with high(er) lithium content in their drinking water. The paper also discussed how big pharma had pushed doctors away from Li over the years towards more expensive drugs.

Lithium is quite dangerous, though. The quantities have to be pretty exact and injected with syringe, if I remember correctly, which means a doctor will have to do it for you. Every time. That's obviously problematic.

Lithium salts are most commonly prescribed in pill form. Their therapeutic range is quite narrow, and the toxic range follows quickly beyond that, so blood levels need to be monitored on a regular basis.

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinica…

[deleted]

There is a lovely quote that I think might apply here: "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers". You're presenting a simple answer to a complex, multi-faceted problem and presenting it without any evidence besides your experience. This problem is also deeply personal and challenging to many people (sometimes life-endingly challenging), but your suggestions are coming off as flippant.

If you want to be heard I would suggest presenting scientific evidence, and presenting it gently.

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#27
post #22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Depression affects about 4-12% of the people -- depending on how you look at the numbers -- not insignificant. What you seem to be talking about is not major depression. I grant it may be an interesting theory for some mild depressions, although I'd prefer to see some evidence presented. To suggest it to someone who has actual, clinical depression can come off as offensive and patronising, thus the kind of response y…

[deleted]

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#28
post #19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true (your 2nd paragraph), and I speak from experience (of course, i cant speak for everyone. There is a saying that "happiness is a state of mind, not a state of thing". There are always things to strive for, regrets to be had, if not merely because there are not enough time in the world. Learning to be content with oneself? I was talking to a friend lately that told me "we (as in me and him) only keep li…

[deleted]

You keep saying "many", despite being asked to back it up with something better than anecdote.

I talk to plenty of people with a clinical diagnosis of depression (of all severities - some use self guided CBT from a computer; some use face to face CBT; some people were detained against their will in hospital; one or two even had ECT.) If we're trading anecdotes most of these people did not have situational depression.

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#29
post #23
post #2

In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.

This looks interesting! Do you have any articles, papers etc. I can read?

Re-emergence of moderate iodine deficiency in developed countries: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.ht...

In New Zealand the emergence of moderate iodine deficiency resulted in a mandate of adding iodized salt to bread: http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-welln...

The reasons for the deficiency look a lot like the US:

"The re-emergence in iodine deficiency appears to be due to:

* the increased consumption of commercially-prepared foods (manufactured mostly with non-iodised salt)

* the declining use of iodine-containing sanitizers by the dairy industry

* less salt being used in home prepared foods as a response to the health messages to reduce salt intake"

Re: Depression's Upside (2010)

#30
post #7
post #2

In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.

If it's iodine deficiency that causes depression, then why would decreasing intake of iodized salt help?

Sorry for the poor phrasing. Decreasing salt intake is a healthy thing to do these days, which will likely also decrease one's iodine intake.
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