Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Discussion style and respect

ietf.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–26 of 26 posts

Re: Discussion style and respect

#21

Post by notacoward »

logn wrote: post #19
notacoward wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion. If it were, then maybe someone should also mention Fielding's own interest in enabling insertion of ads by proxies. But no, that's exactly the kind of thing the IETF chair's message was trying to address, for all parties involved. If there's a problem with lobbying and conflicts of interest, that needs to be taken…

Identifying conflicts of interest when evaluating systems is mentioned in the ACM Code of Ethics. It's possible to do this in a neutral/professional way. Section 2.5: http://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics

2.5 refers to 1.3, which is clearly about identifying one's own possible conflicts of interest. There is no suggestion that one should accuse others of having such conflicts. Even if such an accusation were to be made, it should be specific and neutrally phrased, not a passive-aggressive blanket condemnation of anyone who might disagree.

The only way that applies, even considering that IETF and ACM are two separate organizations, is to Fielding's own conflicts of interest.

Re: Discussion style and respect

#22

Post by notacoward »

konstruktor wrote: post #14
notacoward wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion. If it were, then maybe someone should also mention Fielding's own interest in enabling insertion of ads by proxies. But no, that's exactly the kind of thing the IETF chair's message was trying to address, for all parties involved. If there's a problem with lobbying and conflicts of interest, that needs to be taken…

Many engineers often seem to forget that their work has impact on the lives of people. I think that, in the part of the email that you are not quoting, Roy Fielding makes a very good point that TLS everywhere is not just a technical issue, but has significant social implication. Thus, incentives and motives are very valid concerns. If the IETF's idea of professionalism precludes the discussion of ethical concerns, it…

Discussion of ethical concerns is important, but vague accusations that fail to identify any specific party or the nature of their interest are not a discussion, nor are they conducive to such a discussion being productive.

Re: Discussion style and respect

#23

Post by late2part »

How far away is censorship? The IETF has always been a rough and tumble group, with consensus over voting or process. I encourage respect and politeness, but the tone of Jari's email seems a little condescending and schoolmarm to me.

Re: Discussion style and respect

#24

Post by nhaehnle »

notacoward wrote: post #8
learnstats2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg93416.h... This post seems like reasonable criticism to me. It doesn't attack any individual. It's fair to attribute motive for a particular agenda. The discussion would not be complete without considering conflict-of-interest motivations of the participants. It also seems fair to say that Google and other companies with the goal of Internet centralization have b…

No. Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion. If it were, then maybe someone should also mention Fielding's own interest in enabling insertion of ads by proxies. But no, that's exactly the kind of thing the IETF chair's message was trying to address, for all parties involved. If there's a problem with lobbying and conflicts of interest, that needs to be taken…

Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion.

Disagree. Here's why: Other people's motives should never be a deciding factor in technical discussions. However, questioning participants' motives can be a very useful heuristic for deciding where to look for potential traps or previously unnoticed disadvantages of complicated proposals. Simply put, it's a heuristic that helps discover trojan horses.

The point is that technical discussions should be decided on technical merits, but it's important that everybody understands what those merits are. Looking into motives helps to achieve this understanding.

If it were, then maybe someone should also mention Fielding's own interest in enabling insertion of ads by proxies.

Absolutely. All those interests should be out in the open.

Re: Discussion style and respect

#25

Post by logn »

notacoward wrote: post #21
logn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identifying conflicts of interest when evaluating systems is mentioned in the ACM Code of Ethics. It's possible to do this in a neutral/professional way. Section 2.5: http://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics

2.5 refers to 1.3, which is clearly about identifying one's own possible conflicts of interest. There is no suggestion that one should accuse others of having such conflicts. Even if such an accusation were to be made, it should be specific and neutrally phrased, not a passive-aggressive blanket condemnation of anyone who might disagree. The only way that applies, even considering that IETF and ACM are two separate o…

Point is, it's relevant to technical discussions like this. Also Section 2.5 doesn't really limit itself to one's own conflicts of interest (only by reference to the other section). But that's beside that point anyhow I think, as either way it rebuts your point that "Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion".

Yes, ACM doesn't really mean anything for IETF, but ACM and IEEE are (pretty much) the only two professional associations for us.

Re: Discussion style and respect

#26

Post by notacoward »

logn wrote: post #25
notacoward wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.5 refers to 1.3, which is clearly about identifying one's own possible conflicts of interest. There is no suggestion that one should accuse others of having such conflicts. Even if such an accusation were to be made, it should be specific and neutrally phrased, not a passive-aggressive blanket condemnation of anyone who might disagree. The only way that applies, even considering that IETF and ACM are two separate o…

Point is, it's relevant to technical discussions like this. Also Section 2.5 doesn't really limit itself to one's own conflicts of interest (only by reference to the other section). But that's beside that point anyhow I think, as either way it rebuts your point that "Attribution of motive is never helpful or appropriate as part of a supposedly-technical discussion". Yes, ACM doesn't really mean anything for IETF, but…

Only an ACM member would claim they're still relevant.

See how helpful that was?

Post reply on HN