Lojban

Does that include Klingon and Elvish?

Less flippantly, I believe in 1980 it was for most people a better use of one's time to read "The Selfish Gene" and "Gödel, Escher, Bach" than to learn Linear B, in order to think and reason differently. (I specify a date since the main ideas described in those books now pervade culture, so they would have less of an impact now.)

Regarding Scandinavian languages and gender, "Norwegian has three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter—except the Bergen dialect, which has only two genders: common and neuter." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language). Danish and Swedish have two grammatical genders, common and neuter.

Traces of a masculine gender remain in Swedish when used to refer to a male. For example, "den rika" could mean "the rich", while "den rike" means "the rich man". However, it's perfectly fine to use "den rika" for the rich man.

All of the Scandinavian languages have more of a gender system than English does, so I think it's a bit odd to use that property as an example. Could you explain why learning (say) the Swedish gender system helps one think and reason differently in any useful form, other than the obvious one of being able to comprehend Swedish and related languages?

In English you have time. You say if something [happens] at some time, [is happening] now, has [happened] or [will happen]. In Chinese, for instance, you don't have grammar for that (=no tense). But you have grammar to determine if that what's happening has started to happen, is in the middle of happening (not sure how to express that in English), is finished and in many regards even what result was achieved (=aspect). You can't say "it happened" but you can say "happen-stateChanged". You also can't say "I found" but you can say "I search-done".

Now even if you try to communicate in a language with tense but without aspect you are able to communicate better because you know there are two things to think about, when something happened related to you (tense) and how that activity is related to the flow of time (aspect). You will find that even languages without one kind of grammar will have a way to express something similar (e.g. in English perfect/imperfect is expressed with tense). You might even be able to do something an untrained native of your target language might not be able to do: When there are different nearly similar ways to say something you might be able to choose the better alternative and distinguish between both of them because of your deeper understanding of grammar.

I believe my response wasn't clear enough. I don't believe that the statement "By learning a different language, you also learn how to think and reason differently." is useful.

I do not think it's useful for most people to learn Linear B. Instead, I think there are more effective ways to 'learn how to think and reason differently' in the same amount of time, if that's one's goal.

In addition, the comment about genderless Scandinavian languages is incorrect. There are at least two genders (in the grammar sense), and those languages have more of a gender influence than English does. One shouldn't learn Swedish to understand how a genderless language works.

That isn't to say that learning a language is pointless or that it can't lead to a different view on how to think. Rather, that the blanket statement doesn't contain useful advice, and one of the specific examples appears to be incorrect.

Regarding tenses, qué será, será. :)

Lojban is logical but very difficult; it is so logical that the mental discipline required to use it correctly far exceeds that of natural languages. (Which may be an insight into why natural languages are not logical). Quoting Akira Okrent:

> To all the language curmudgeons out there who insist that people ought to speak more logically, I say, be careful what you wish for. You go on about the "logical" mismatch between "everyone" and "their" in perfectly normal sounding sentences like "Everyone clapped their hands." You argue that phrases like "very unique" and "sufficiently enough" don't make logical sense. You harp on "hopefully" and "literally" and "the reason is because," all the while calling logic to your side to defend your righteous anger. Before you judge me as some kind of "anything goes" language heathen, let me just say that I'm not against usage standards. I don't violate them when I want to sound like an educated person, for the same reason I don't wear a bikini to a funeral when I want to look like a respectful person. There are social conventions for the way we do lots of things, and it is to everyone's benefit to be familiar with them. But logic ain't got nothin' to do with it.

> And oh, how grateful I am. Do you know how good we have it, how much easier our speaking lives are made by the fact that language and logic part ways? Consider the word "and." Why, you barely have to know what you mean when you say it! When you say you “like ham and eggs” do you have to specify whether you like each of those things as evaluated on its own merits separately or whether you like them served together as an entrée? No. You just lazily throw out your "and" and let context do the rest of the work for you. When you say you “woke up and ate breakfast” do you mean that you woke up first and then ate breakfast? Or did you do the two things simultaneously? Or, maybe your breakfast was asleep, so you woke it up and then ate it. Pshaw, you say. You know what I mean. Perhaps I do, says the Lojbanist. Perhaps I don’t.

Taking on the project of learning a logical language like Lojban may not end in your being able to speak the language well, but who cares--you will learn a lot about linguistics and you will focus on potential ambiguity in how you use English or other languages.

By comparison, Esperanto's grammar is very easy--sixteen rules, easily learned by anyone familiar with a European language. It's wonderful to have a learning curve that is so short.

Its worse. Its approaching "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" territory amongst the nerdy set.(1)

(1) It's turtles all the way down. (1)