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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#21

Post by JonnieCache »

timq wrote: post #18
malka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course, it happened maybe twice in my life, not a couple times a week. In France, that depends mostly of your shade of skin.

> In France, that depends mostly of your shade of skin. Well, it mostly depend if you live in a sensible district or not. It happens that mostly Arab and black people live in sensible district because they are poorer than the normal average french people. And (relative) poverty is the source of a lot of social problems. I don't say there is no racism in France too, there is. But it is more indirect, like people tryin…

I think you mean "sensitive." "Sensible" is a value judgement about a person or course of action and how much "sense" they possess.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#23

Post by arethuza »

EliRivers wrote: post #5
comrade1 wrote: post #2

I guess the best you can do is hopethat you know the laws for the area you live in. The u.s. has so many laws that are different across states and also so many laws that are enforced arbitrarily. Some states you only have to verbally identify yourself to police. Some states you're required to show I.d. if requested. Some states you can decline a breathalyzer and other states you cannot. And if you know the law then y…

That's all very well, but it turns out the armour of righteousness is poor protection against getting shot in the back by a policeman, who subsequently plants his excuse on your body. Coppers prepared to do that are hardly going to listen to people claiming their rights are being violated. I dread the day that standard plod in the UK carries a firearm.

Well I guess the good news is that the UK police seem pretty adamant that they don't want to be armed on normal duty.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#24

Post by minot »

maze-le wrote: post #15
Jacqued wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those random identity checks are only legal if they are performed under particular circumstances establishing the risk of breach of the public order (for example around a protest or in such situations). Theoretically they cannot be based on the appearance of the person being controlled. This means it is not legal for a police officer to control your identity unless they have established this risk of public disorder.…

I don't think that is entireley true. While the Schengen-Zone (EU border agreements) has established that there are no physical borders, where you have to show an id, there is a 50km (maybe more maybe less I don't know exactly) zone around those borders, where Identity checks are permitted. Police is allowed to control your identity in those zones if they have a "reasonable cause" to think yo may be an illegal immigr…

In theory, they can't do that here in the US either.

> Border Patrol, nevertheless, cannot pull anyone over without "reasonable suspicion" of an immigration violation or crime (reasonable suspicion is more than just a "hunch"). Similarly, Border Patrol cannot search vehicles in the 100-mile zone without a warrant or "probable cause" (a reasonable belief, based on the circumstances, that an immigration violation or crime has likely occurred).

> In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority in the course of individual stops, resulting in violations of the constitutional rights of innocent people. These problems are compounded by inadequate training for Border Patrol agents, a lack of oversight by CBP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the consistent failure of CBP to hold agents accountable for abuse. Thus, although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution free," the U.S. government frequently acts like it is.

https://www.aclu.org/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#25

Post by Hermel »

maze-le wrote: post #15
Jacqued wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those random identity checks are only legal if they are performed under particular circumstances establishing the risk of breach of the public order (for example around a protest or in such situations). Theoretically they cannot be based on the appearance of the person being controlled. This means it is not legal for a police officer to control your identity unless they have established this risk of public disorder.…

I don't think that is entireley true. While the Schengen-Zone (EU border agreements) has established that there are no physical borders, where you have to show an id, there is a 50km (maybe more maybe less I don't know exactly) zone around those borders, where Identity checks are permitted. Police is allowed to control your identity in those zones if they have a "reasonable cause" to think yo may be an illegal immigr…

The justification is not "experience" and "statistics". The justification is that it works well. Just like the language of an email can help identifying spam, skin color can help identifying illegal immigrants. I would say that 99% of all spam I receive is written in English, whereas about 80% of my personal emails are in German. Thus, even though there is nothing wrong with that language in general, English words can be used as one factor of many to help identifying spam.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#26

Post by alwaysinshade »

A recent article on HN made me realise that the U.S. might be on the right track for fixing this. The article was called Game Theory's Cure For Corruption Makes Us All Cops [0]. The solution is in your pocket.

Imagine a city where police commit blatant traffic violations and never ticket one another. The authorities could decrease power inequalities by developing an online system in which all citizens are able to anonymously report dangerous drivers. Anyone who received too many independent reports would be investigated – police included. This sounds almost laughably simple, and yet the model indicates that it ought to do the trick. It is, after all, essentially the same system used by many online communities.

[0] http://aeon.co/magazine/society/game-theorys-cure-for-corrup...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#27

Post by WDCDev »

arethuza wrote: post #20
zouhair wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it is mostly a for profit business helps a lot.

Only 8.4% of US prisoners are in privately owned prisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Development_3 I suspect wider cultural reasons rather than just simple corruption - though that no doubt plays a part.

It's not just private prisons, it's the correctional officer unions too. They benefit greatly from large prison populations.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#29

Post by tim333 »

zo1 wrote: post #14
vog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The percentage of criminals in the United States" Not sure how this is really an additional fact. If you defined criminals in the sense of "criminals as defined in the US", you have almost by definition a direct correlation to the number of prisoners. BTW, here in Germany we also have politicians who think that Europe's criminals concentrate in Germany. Probably every country has some people believing that all cri…

The point I'm making is that it's implicit that they are "not" criminals by virtue of there being such a huge discrepancy. This needs to be addressed in a clear, and concise manner instead of making sweeping generalizations about the discrepancy.

Who is 'criminal' is fairly arbitrary in many cases. Say you sell some hash to a friend. Legal in some states, can lead to 30 years in some others, generally not a huge crime in the sense of harming others.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#30

Post by arethuza »

WDCDev wrote: post #27
arethuza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 8.4% of US prisoners are in privately owned prisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Development_3 I suspect wider cultural reasons rather than just simple corruption - though that no doubt plays a part.

It's not just private prisons, it's the correctional officer unions too. They benefit greatly from large prison populations.

I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_O...

So they lobby to increase prison terms and to "enforce current drug laws". I suppose they should have the right to do that, but it still seems a bit odd to me!

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