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New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

washingtonpost.com

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Re: New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

#21

Post by hga »

jepper wrote: post #17
rdudekul wrote: post #4

The technology that goes into a self driving car is possibly far more sophisticated than this new machine. Anesthesiologists must have lobbied hard to stop this machine from a more wide spread usage. However the writing on the wall is clear. Machines in many cases are better than Doctors and they will continue to become better more rapidly than say Doctors with their experience. I wish US FDA gives a chance to these…

Yes, some standard procedures on ASA1 patiens do not require a lot of sophistication. However do not underestimate how hard anesthesiology is, while 90% routine, 10% is incredibly complex stressfull scenarios in trauma/emergency, surgical complications, adverse events. Its much more than just heart rate, RR, oxymetry etc. Its knowledge about medicine interactions, organ systems, physiological systems and the skill to…

ASA1 == American Society of Anesthesiologists physical status classification system "Healthy person", e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASA_physical_status_classifica...

With an increasingly graying population in the US, rdudekul's hopes ... well, I suppose if you can decrease e.g. the ASA 1 need for anesthesiologists while they're still on tap if things go south, it'll overall help. But it's probably not going to get big, and will create triage like situations where people will needlessly die when there's no anesthesiologist to spare.

Re: New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

#22

Post by codingdave »

mhuffman wrote: post #8

As someone who has "been under" a few times, I am torn on this. I like the idea of less errors due to a computer, but there is something comforting about knowing that a human expert is "at the wheel". I know it is irrational, but I feel similar about airplanes and cars -- much more comfortable when you know there is a human at the helm. Maybe it is the mortal peril part of the equation.

I could foresee a setup like airline pilots - the autopilot truly does most of the work, but humans monitor and are available in case of emergencies.

Re: New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

#23

Post by davak »

Non-anesthesiologist ICU physician here so slight bias should be noted.

I'm a huge fan of this. Machine will be much more anal about minor issues that some anesthesiologists / CRNAs may ignore. Additionally, this will greatly bring down costs for healthy routine procedures that need sedation. Machines don't "get bored" and if things fall out of parameters they happily yell to get attention. Properly coded they should also not make medication errors. Additionally, they should be able to record data and find patterns in patients that unexpectedly don't do well.

Michael Jackson would probably still be alive if a machine had been used to help monitor his propofol!

Dialysis, for example, used to be a much more manual process. Now, it is mostly driven by nurses and machines. Heck, people even do self-directed dialysis at home.

This isn't the end of anesthesiology by any means. The more difficult patients such as those who are obese or have a bunch of health problems will still need more aggressive observations. However, I suspect these machines will move into bigger and bigger surgeries to help assist the gas-passers provide safer analgesia and sedation.

Just like robotic assisted surgery became too popular too fast and outcomes suffered, I suspect these type of machines will not be trouble-free. How long before the HN articles about one of these being hacked start appearing? Nevertheless, medical machines like this with tight feedback loops are essential for improving the safety and efficiency in the future practice of medicine.

Re: New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

#24

Post by Mvandenbergh »

gokhan wrote: post #11
hamoid wrote: post #7

From the name, I used to think that anesthesiologists just "put people to sleep" or stopped patient's pain. My view is now different. Their job (for what I'm told) is also to keep people alive and stable. They administer drugs and employ machines and techniques to control body temperature, blood pressure, oxygen levels, heart rate and others. Sometimes it's a simple colonoscopy (like in the article), but other times…

My sister is an anesthesiologists. She sometimes anesthetize heart or brain surgery patients without putting them to sleep, because they're too old or unhealthy but need the surgery asap. These people normally cannot come back to life from anesthesia, which is just making someone dead by stopping heartbeat and respiratory functions with anesthetic agents and then animating them with machines. So the creepy state of h…

>These people normally cannot come back to life from anesthesia, which is just making someone dead by stopping heartbeat and respiratory functions with anesthetic agents and then animating them with machines.

Hearts do not stop beating during ordinary general anaesthesia.

Re: New machine could one day replace anesthesiologists

#26

Post by gokhan »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #24
gokhan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister is an anesthesiologists. She sometimes anesthetize heart or brain surgery patients without putting them to sleep, because they're too old or unhealthy but need the surgery asap. These people normally cannot come back to life from anesthesia, which is just making someone dead by stopping heartbeat and respiratory functions with anesthetic agents and then animating them with machines. So the creepy state of h…

>These people normally cannot come back to life from anesthesia, which is just making someone dead by stopping heartbeat and respiratory functions with anesthetic agents and then animating them with machines. Hearts do not stop beating during ordinary general anaesthesia.

You're right. My bad.
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