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Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

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Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#21

Post by smeyer »

yodsanklai wrote: post #11
analyst74 wrote: post #8

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

> some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous there are no such thing as "non-French speaking neighborhoods" in France.

I'm an American who isn't very knowledgeable about France. Could you expand on this a little bit? There are definitely neighborhoods in the US where even if many people speak English, it's not the dominant language in the neighborhood. For example, places where more signs and labels on shops and such are in some other language than are in English. Are there no similar neighborhoods in France where another language dominates over French?

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#22

Post by fweespeech »

fermigier wrote: post #19

This is a huge setback, both for democracy and for the french tech ecosystem. While the most preeminent french hosting and cloud providers (OVH, Online, Gandi, Alter Way...) have been quite vocal about the issue, none of the big french telcos (Orange, SFR, Bouygues) have said a single word about it. Shame on them! 900 tech companies, research organisations, and trade associations (so far) have asked the government to…

http://www.iliad.fr/en/

Online.NET is a big TelCo as well fyi. They own http://mobile.free.fr/ etc.

But yeah, I've dropped my OVH/Online.net servers in favor of more Hetzner nodes with the exception of their S3 competitors [I just can't find any equivalent price/performance/availability]. That and I front end the S3 competitors anyway via a CDN over https which I think is fine with this legal framework [it just sniffs unencrypted traffic iirc]

If you are making that kind of switch and are looking for bootstrapping automation for bare metal nodes at Hetzner:

https://github.com/asconix/hetzner-bootstrap-coreos

https://github.com/rmoriz/hetzner-bootstrap

https://github.com/leitmedium/hetzner-bootstrap

https://github.com/RedMoonStudios/hetzner

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#23

Post by analyst74 »

yodsanklai wrote: post #11
analyst74 wrote: post #8

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

> some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous there are no such thing as "non-French speaking neighborhoods" in France.

What was described to me was certain areas in the country or suburban immigrant neighbourhoods, which I assumed to be non-French speaking.

But after some reading, it seems you are right, as people in the ghettos still speak French, and not necessarily fresh immigrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_situation_in_the_French_...

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#24

Post by nraynaud »

higherpurpose wrote: post #18
nraynaud wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPN will make you a target. That's the whole point of recording at the ISP level, the traffic is still quite individualized.

Saying "encryption makes you a target" represents a lack of understanding for how spy agencies monitor all communications. It's not like spy agency analysts target only some people and when they are in their offices and see some encrypted traffic from someone they go: "AHA! This guy uses encryption - let's monitor his (encrypted) communications and his metadata!" It's more like everyone's wide-open communications are…

in that framework, consider that encryption is just a special keyword. And then they see that not a lot of people use it, then they have an opportunity to add just a bit more effort to those cases (maybe just storing the encrypted traffic), because there are so few.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#25

Post by malka »

fermigier wrote: post #19

This is a huge setback, both for democracy and for the french tech ecosystem. While the most preeminent french hosting and cloud providers (OVH, Online, Gandi, Alter Way...) have been quite vocal about the issue, none of the big french telcos (Orange, SFR, Bouygues) have said a single word about it. Shame on them! 900 tech companies, research organisations, and trade associations (so far) have asked the government to…

I plan to use VPN in area that are NOT friendly with the OTAN, such as Russia.

I'd rather have Putin spy on me, than my own governement, or its allies. He has far less influence over my life, and I doubt that french and russian intelligence are cooperating.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#26

Post by teamhappy »

It's going to be very interesting to hear their excuses for this kind of nonsense. By now we now it'll hurt the french population most. It'll hurt their economy second (I'm a big fan of Gandi, but that might change very soon), and it won't protect anybody either.

I have hoped learning from the mistakes the US gov made after 9/11 would be the one good thing coming out of 9/11.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#27

Post by linkregister »

higherpurpose wrote: post #18
nraynaud wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPN will make you a target. That's the whole point of recording at the ISP level, the traffic is still quite individualized.

Saying "encryption makes you a target" represents a lack of understanding for how spy agencies monitor all communications. It's not like spy agency analysts target only some people and when they are in their offices and see some encrypted traffic from someone they go: "AHA! This guy uses encryption - let's monitor his (encrypted) communications and his metadata!" It's more like everyone's wide-open communications are…

Not sure why @higherpurpose was downvoted, she or he described accurately the surveillance programs revealed by Ed, according to the leaked documents [1].

Of course we don't have the luxury of leaked French docs, but in the absence of data, we shouldn't automatically leap to the position supported by the least amount of evidence.

[1] Selectors used: https://prod01-cdn00.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/20...

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#28

Post by nraynaud »

smeyer wrote: post #21
yodsanklai wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous there are no such thing as "non-French speaking neighborhoods" in France.

I'm an American who isn't very knowledgeable about France. Could you expand on this a little bit? There are definitely neighborhoods in the US where even if many people speak English, it's not the dominant language in the neighborhood. For example, places where more signs and labels on shops and such are in some other language than are in English. Are there no similar neighborhoods in France where another language do…

the biggest immigrant community in the US is Mexican so they have a common language that is Spanish.

In France it's Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, where they all speak good french and a local dialect of arabic (let's say 60% french speaking people in all 3 countries, declining towards the local dialect), so it's easy to get the French as a common idiom. So you have many languages, but it's easier for everybody to use French anyways.

On the food packages, the second most common language (often exactly the same size as the french) is ... Dutch ... Ok, we'll have to go north and speak about Belgium. Those packages are sold in all european French speaking countries (Luxembourg, Switzerland, France, Belgium, in one day of trucking you can cross the area). Of those countries only Belgium and Switzerland have another language as official language, and only Belgium require to have both of it's national languages on its packaging (another story of bigotry for next time).

One exception to the language distribution I talked about might be the Chinese community, being such a populous country, they can be enough immigrants in an area to avoid French altogether, I don't know them very well, they are very concentrated in small areas, and I don't know if they speak both mandarin and cantonese, or if the majority is from only one linguistic area. But I'm pretty sure the kids speak french at school, it's mandatory and in French here.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#29

Post by analyst74 »

nraynaud wrote: post #20
analyst74 wrote: post #8

Talking to friends lived or are still living in France, here are just some of the problems I heard: - in Paris, it's common to get robbed, and sometimes beaten up if you are not careful, and cops can do nothing. This is from a guy who went to school in Paris, I can't imagine what's it like to be a girl. - some of the non-French speaking neighbourhoods are quite dangerous, even cops would avoid going there for their o…

Maybe it's time to change your friends? - there is a lot of criminality in Paris and suburbs, but I have been robbed only once, in a real shithole. There is a lot of white collar criminality too. - there are no non-french neighborhood, most people have french citizenship, most immigrants are from a french speaking country, and even inside a high immigration area, since people are coming from different countries, fren…

Your answer shed a lot more light to what's it like in France and corrected my misinformation.

The guy told me about the danger of Paris is not French, so are most of his friends. I imagine their ignorance about what's dangerous and what's not caused them to get in more troubles than locals like yourself.

Re: Lawmakers in France Move to Vastly Expand Surveillance

#30

Post by walterbell »

dragonwriter wrote: post #14
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afterward, the entire region was remodeled on American style government representation, modern central banking, market economies and so on. No, not really. The dominant form of government in Europe is the parliamentary republic (several at the backdrop of constitutional/ceremonial monarchies), compared to the more unique federalist model of the United States where there is a strict separation between the union and lo…

> The dominant form of government in Europe is the parliamentary republic You mean "parliamentary democracy" (which is a subtype of representative democracy), not "parliamentary republic". "Republic" specifically means the absence of a monarch, which, as you note, is not a feature of many of the systems at issue. (Some, however, are republics, as well as parliamentary democracies.) > Central banking was initially a E…

BIS (central bank of central banks) is based in Switzerland, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_for_International_Settleme...
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