Posts like this, and the #talkpay on Twitter, is the kind of stuff I would've loved to have a couple years ago, starting in the industry. Here's hoping this sparks a conversation across the industry between employees and managers on salary over the next couple months.
Talking About Money
21–30 of 412 posts
Re: Talking About Money
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
We're fortunate enough to be in an industry where it's rare to be really desperate for a job, so I've come to take this kind of thing as a very strong indication that it's the kind of place that would really suck to work at in any case. From that point of view, the earlier all the BS floats to the surface, the better, so you can get on with looking for a good job.
Yeah except sometimes good engineering teams sit behind ugly HR practices, and hiring processes unfortunately expose you to HR far more than the actual job does.
The world is full of people doing good and interesting stuff without having all kinds of lame bureaucracy. I'm more than willing to bear the risk of missing out on something interesting by passing on that kind of company.
Re: Talking About Money
#23"Salaries are not just internally transparent at Japanese megacorps but so predictable that any middle-class adult in central Japan can accurately predict my salary history. I mention this partly to say that salary transparency by itself does not guarantee happy outcomes for employees."
Yes. Salaries at Buffer might be transparent but also quite low.
Re: Talking About Money
#24>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…
That's the point where you quote a wildly inflated salary with a straight face.
"My last salary was $300,000. Yes, seriously. Is that too high for you? We can discuss this further in negotiations, I'm flexible"
Re: Talking About Money
#25If consulting is making $30k/week/job then why keep running the personal businesses? Why not take the consulting and branch it out, and drop everything else as a distraction?
Because I enjoyed running the software business more than I enjoyed running the consultancy. Partly that is for difficult-to-explain personal reasons (I feel the sense of satisfaction with operating a software company that some people feel when painting things). Partly it is because of reasons which are endemic to consultancies, even successful consultancies. Feel free to ask if you're curious. I also have a quirky r…
I'm curious about the endemic reasons.
Overall, is it that being closer to the product feels better? And did you really shake all the "weird feelings"/impostor syndrome about charging a high rate?
Re: Talking About Money
#26As a recent graduate about to go into his first ever salary negotiation, I'm really grateful for the perspective this provides. My dad was a taxi driver (now drives for Uber) and my mother a stay-at-home mom. I was raised with the notion of earning enough to support myself. Anything beyond that is something I'm expected to figure out myself. Posts such as these are very helpful. A question though: 1. If I've had conv…
For 2, if a reasonable salary is $X, and the company offers you $X-$Y, you're essentially investing $Y per year into the company (at worse terms than actual investors). How much equity do/did investors want for $Y?
It isn't that simple - investments and their returns have risks built in, and people expect more return for more risk. If you are an employee, you are not risking your own money, you are just losing some opportunities for cash. This lost opportunity does work into the equation, but not at the same risk level as an investor because if the company tanks, the investors lose every dime... But the employee still got paid the whole time.
I do agree that for negotiation purposes, considering pay below market value is a good point for discussion. But don't get offended if it is not weighted as heavily as people who actually wrote checks.
Re: Talking About Money
#27Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake
Completely agree with this, though I made a mistake that was even worse than this. A friend hired me a couple of years ago to join his small company as the first developer, during which I disclosed my salary and also mentioned that I was willing to take a pay cut (as I wasn't happy where I was, and he was a tiny company still finding his footing). Fortunately, he matched my salary, so I didn't end up making less money as such, though it also didn't take into account of the value that I brought to the business, being the only developer on the team.
As a result, it certainly feels like I've sabotaged myself, where I should be making more than I am, with the only solution being to find better compensated employment elsewhere despite being reasonably with my current role.
Re: Talking About Money
#28>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…
We're fortunate enough to be in an industry where it's rare to be really desperate for a job, so I've come to take this kind of thing as a very strong indication that it's the kind of place that would really suck to work at in any case. From that point of view, the earlier all the BS floats to the surface, the better, so you can get on with looking for a good job.
> where it's rare to be really desperate for a job
My personal experience tells me there are plenty of people desperate for a job, and that is likely why these HR drones can still do this. I have become so disillusioned even talking to these kinds of people because they refuse to consider talented people when its staring them in the face.
Re: Talking About Money
#29Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake
I used to believe in this adamantly, however recently I think it requires a bit of refinement.
First, it depends on where you are presently. If you are in a job you really don't enjoy or are not performing well in, for whatever reason, your top priority is finding a job that better utilizes your talents. A lot of people believe that once you start a job at a certain rate of pay, you can't negotiate it up significantly because you will always be anchored to that initial amount. That isn't really true. Once you start if you perform well you become a valuable asset, and companies don't like to lose valuable assets. One option is to find another company that will offer you the amount you want to make and take it back to your company and ask them to match it. Very often they will and without much argument. However the important thing is to start.
Now if you are in a job you enjoy and have no real desire to leave except pay, then you definitely should not disclose your salary, as you have a powerful negotiating position as you really don't need to move. However if the company is really pressing you to give them a number and won't move you on unless you do, it's okay to tell them the number if you are up-front and steadfast in that you are looking for amount $X which could be 1.5x, 2x, or any multiple of what you are presently earning. If they claim they can't match it then move on.
Finally, never negotiate salary with a recruiter before meeting with the hiring manager. Many times (certainly not always) recruiters do not know much about the job requirements besides what was written by the hiring team in a bulleted list. They don't have the authority to grant salary requests, but in many cases hiring managers do. I have had several job offers come in well above what the recruiter told me the job paid. No matter what you are told the salary range is, if a team really wants you, they will pay to get you.
Re: Talking About Money
#30>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…
The flipside is that you give them a number and get a good idea if they are going to be able to compete, and if not, you don't waste any more of your time.