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Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

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Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#21

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

"Productivity ground to a halt for six months" My experience feels the same way. I am beginning to think Agile works for UI dev and small teams of inexperienced folks building relatively simple projects. If you have a large team building something complex, the constant meetings and tool updates destroy productivity. What's worse ... they destroy developer morale if you are actually a good dev IMHO.

It's roughly 2-4 hours worth of meetings in 2 weeks. That "destroys" productivity?

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#22

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

"'How long will that bug take to fix?' is like asking 'How long is it going to take to answer 23 across in next Sunday's crossword puzzle?' It might be fifteen seconds, it might take all day; until I have a chance to look at the puzzle I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass." .

I find this attitude to be a little disingenuous. Obviously every bug cannot be estimated perfectly, but the majority of the time there is some initial data to make a reasonable estimate with a margin of error.

For instance to name a few:

- Past experience with the module associated.

- Whether or not it has been reproduced locally.

- Similarity to other bugs that have come up in the past.

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#23
An eager beaver at one of my client's is introducing Agile as a "Waterfall silver bullet."

I see right away one Agile defect: It prefers near-term "user story success" over long-term investments like creating debuggable architecture.

Why spend time now making things easier for the rest of the cycle if it's not a priority in this iteration?

Why write "gdb" when "gcc with printfs" will work fine, even if it simply requires more sprints?

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#24

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

What was your company doing before switching to Agile?

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#25
Every methodology fails from pretty much the same reasoning.

The saving point of Agile is breaking tasks into reasonable sizes, long enough to actually get something done and short enough to rearrange as needed sooner rather than later, and to delay interruptions until they can be evaluated and other tasks completed. I can't get to what I need to do if the relentless onslaught of self-important "do this _now_!" interruptions are handled as they occur; Agile provides a sane way to say "get in line" such that important issues are addressed in a timely manner relative to other issues and without compromising other stuff that also needs doing (those that never reach the top of the interrupt stack, but without which long-term progress won't happen).

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#26
post #8

This article cements in my mind the issue: devs tend to take away from agile what they expect to find, rather than taking the time to understand the motivations and whole scope of activities. Historically, most software development methodologies are excessively top-down, so people somehow still expect that from agile. Most devs are the sort that couldn't stand doing group projects in school, so the idea of organizing…

>Agile development is about making connections to your team members: individuals and interactions over process and tools.

See, this kind of vague, fuzzy feel-good description is exactly why it seems to me that the one thing everyone seems to agree on about Agile is that everyone else is doing it incorrectly.

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#27

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

Taking on a new development process in the middle of a project is much harder than starting on a new one. In particular, as you mentioned there's an issue of legacy bugs. There's mounds of information available suggesting strategies for taking care of this, but ultimately you'll be in an unfortunate transition while you're still handling legacy bugs that makes it hard to move forward.

Most of my experience with agile is in the XP flavors, where the mantra is no bugs. I know it's hard to believe, but I promise it's an achievable goal if the whole team single-mindedly works towards that goal.

You're right, estimating is hard. The thing is, people are actually really good at relative estimation, it's absolute estimation that we completely suck at. That's the idea behind estimating in points: you free yourself from trying to think "how long will this take me?", which you'll inevitably get wrong, to "is this harder or easier than this other thing" which almost always is pretty easy to do.

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#28
post #6

IF teams are using Agile like that there doing it wrong. It's meant to be recipe for collaborative, relaxed, friendly environment. Not a pressured hot house. If your goal is to use Agile to push developers to their limits, you've already failed the Agile Test. You can twist Agile, based on your vision of good team is. So you have to get the right people to implement it. You have to approach it from the idea of it bei…

> It's meant to be recipe for collaborative, relaxed, friendly environment. Not a pressured hot house.

The vast majority of work environments cannot be described as relaxed and friendly (hell, most of them probably aren't all that collaborative). Far more could be described as pressured hot houses.

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#29

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

"Productivity ground to a halt for six months" My experience feels the same way. I am beginning to think Agile works for UI dev and small teams of inexperienced folks building relatively simple projects. If you have a large team building something complex, the constant meetings and tool updates destroy productivity. What's worse ... they destroy developer morale if you are actually a good dev IMHO.

The classic success cases for Scrum were projects that had (a) been done before, and (b) been done by the same team.

So they had lots of experience.

If you ask an assembly-line worker "How long is it going to take you to install this transmission?" they'll be able to tell you within a few seconds. But that's not engineering.

If you ask someone who's written essentially the same app five or six times before "How long will it take you to finish feature X?" they'll be able to tell you with pretty high confidence.

If you ask someone, "How long is it going to take you to finish designing and implementing that gozzlewog?" they won't have the foggiest idea. Ask them again, when they've re-implemented it a few times, and they'll have an idea then. Until then you can decompose the problem and do analysis on the pieces and make assumptions, but you still won't know how long it'll take until it's done because the industry has been doing this for like 70 years and the one thing we know is that scheduling unknowns and unknown unknowns is still very, very hard.

Scrum works if you've done it before. Apply it to green fields or systems with known wicked behavior, and you're likely to fail in quite a few ways, including pissing off your developers and boiling off the good ones for better work environments.

Re: Why do some developers consider Agile development to be nonsense?

#30
post #24

This matches my experience. We recently brought on a couple of PM consultants who are deep into Agile as a methodology, and decided to give it a go -- it's been about six months now and productivity has basically ground to a halt as we spend more and more meeting time endlessly sorting tasks into different little arbitrary piles instead of actually making forward progress. It's made communication with the non-softwar…

What was your company doing before switching to Agile?

Getting stuff done, but in the eyes of management not fast enough. Just guessing but this seems to be the rule.

If you really need agile it will not help and if your team already rocks agile won't improve it, likely you'll already be doing something like it but customized to your needs.

I've seen a couple of fairly efficient teams utterly ruined by switching to 'agile' and I've yet to see an inefficient team become more efficient by deploying it.

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