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Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

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Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#21

Post by benev »

bambax wrote: post #14
bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

I cycle commute in a hilly city (Bristol, UK), and I think you're just a little inexperienced at cycling for work.

I can cycle hard and sweat, or I can cycle gently and sweat very little. We don't have a shower in the office, but I don't cycle too hard to work, and change shirt when I get in. It's not a problem. On the way home, I cycle hard and have a shower.

I can stay completely dry when cycling by simply carrying waterproofs. I just make it routine to always have these. It's true that these make it a little sweatier, but a change of clothes solves this problem.

Cycling isn't going to be suitable for every journey. However, 15% is quite a small target when you think about all the little trips people need. Things like cheap electric cars can be useful for the remaining 85%.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#22

Post by bambax »

benev wrote: post #21
bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

I cycle commute in a hilly city (Bristol, UK), and I think you're just a little inexperienced at cycling for work. I can cycle hard and sweat, or I can cycle gently and sweat very little. We don't have a shower in the office, but I don't cycle too hard to work, and change shirt when I get in. It's not a problem. On the way home, I cycle hard and have a shower. I can stay completely dry when cycling by simply carrying…

> you're just a little inexperienced at cycling for work

It's possible. But please note that I don't exactly go to "work" in my own office where I would have the liberty of changing shirts at will; I visit clients and usually go there for a specific meeting.

Maybe I could arrive early and change in the men's room, but that would still be a big hassle. And when I visit two or more clients in the same day, how many shirts would I end up carrying? And who's ironing these? (If you must know, I iron my own shirts, and like to make them last more than a day whenever possible...)

I said in another post that I never met anyone at my clients' offices who commuted by bicycle, but actually I did; last year I met a man who lived in Nanterre and worked in the center of Paris. So he took a bike in the morning, going downhill, and went back home in the evening using the subway.

This only works because there are special trucks that take back Velibs uphill every night; he couldn't do that with his own bike. The Velib trucks didn't exist when there wasn't any Velib, so it's unclear if this guy's behavior actually saves a lot of fossil energy or just a little.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#23

Post by benev »

bambax wrote: post #22
benev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cycle commute in a hilly city (Bristol, UK), and I think you're just a little inexperienced at cycling for work. I can cycle hard and sweat, or I can cycle gently and sweat very little. We don't have a shower in the office, but I don't cycle too hard to work, and change shirt when I get in. It's not a problem. On the way home, I cycle hard and have a shower. I can stay completely dry when cycling by simply carrying…

> you're just a little inexperienced at cycling for work It's possible. But please note that I don't exactly go to "work" in my own office where I would have the liberty of changing shirts at will; I visit clients and usually go there for a specific meeting. Maybe I could arrive early and change in the men's room, but that would still be a big hassle. And when I visit two or more clients in the same day, how many shi…

> And when I visit two or more clients in the same day, how many shirts would I end up carrying?

Carry two shirts, one for cycling in and one for working. Before getting on your bike, change into your cycling shirt, then switch at the other end. The one for cycling obviously doesn't need to be ironed.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#24

Post by hrktb »

bambax wrote: post #14
bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

>The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights

The problem with Paris would be more that it's full of parisians.

It's very cliche, but sadly true. People are smart and educated but undisciplined, behave unresponsibly, and think about rules as mere guidelines. Being "human" and super lenient is mostly a quality, even when it comes to street rules.

Drivers are really bad, bikes don't care about road rules nor surrounding trafic, and pedestrians can strike conversations in the middle of the street if they get to stop the cars around them. There is an intersection in front of a subway station in the town I live, there is a trafic light, mirrors and road marking, and still every two months someone runs through it and gets hit by a car.

I think the best system would be close the streets that already effectively dominated by pedestrians, reserve the most busy streets for professional vehicles (buses, taxi, delivery vans etc.). This would tip the balance to use private cars for very specific reasons only, and switch to public transport for the more casual trips.

Road mortality would be down, people currently wildly circulating on the street would have full areas reserved for them, public transport would have a boost in use justifying more investment in the infrastructure and modernisation, and pro drivers would also have dedicated lanes and streets.

It feels like a clear win for basically everybody.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#25

Post by yodsanklai »

bambax wrote: post #14
bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

> when it rains you get super wet, much more than on a motorbike, because you have less protection and you don't carry special rain trousers with you at all times

As a cyclist, I always carry waterproof clothes at all time (I still haven't found a way to protect my shoes though...).

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#26

Post by legulere »

cataflam wrote: post #18

> Paris has a pollution problem. Instead of the smoke from Gauloise cigarettes and the aroma of freshly baked bread, the air is packed with smog, an issue that got so bad one day last month, the city forcibly halved traffic by allowing only cars with odd-number plates to drive. Of course this could have nothing do to with Germany phasing out its nuclear power plants and having to reopen coal power plants instead. The…

What you're writing doesn't make much sense. You say CO2 is not the problem but yet link to stuff about it. Coal plants in Germany are really clean though and CO2 is the only real problem of it. NO2 and PM gets filtered out.

Usage of coal stayed roughly the same in the last 10 years [1]. If you directly compare it with the amount 10 years ago it's a slight decrease.

The real issue for pollution lies in different sectors. For instance around half of the PM pollution in Germany is caused by people using wood for heating. Cars are one of the biggest polluters in cities.

[1] https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm click on year: all, annual, all sources

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#27

Post by smcl »

aout wrote: post #6

Most of the big avenues in Paris already have separated bike lanes on either the sidewalk or the bus lane but the road (for regular cars) still takes 80% of the space. The goal here is to leave more space to pedestrians (like on the river front) and reduce the "car space" in the city. The cost of public biking in Paris (3$/month) is very very very small when you consider the cost of having a car (at least 200$/month)…

Genuine question: how did you come up with $3/month? Is that a rough estimate of expenses (maintenance etc) over a year divided by 12, or is there some Paris bike permit required?

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#28

Post by simias »

cataflam wrote: post #18

> Paris has a pollution problem. Instead of the smoke from Gauloise cigarettes and the aroma of freshly baked bread, the air is packed with smog, an issue that got so bad one day last month, the city forcibly halved traffic by allowing only cars with odd-number plates to drive. Of course this could have nothing do to with Germany phasing out its nuclear power plants and having to reopen coal power plants instead. The…

That seems very far fetched to me. Why would the pollution created by german coal power plants accumulate in and around Paris?

In my experience the big pollution episodes in Paris are when there's no wind to wash the smog away. It's definitely localized over the city (not that the air is not polluted elsewhere, it's just generally much worse in Paris).

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#29

Post by sveme »

cataflam wrote: post #18

> Paris has a pollution problem. Instead of the smoke from Gauloise cigarettes and the aroma of freshly baked bread, the air is packed with smog, an issue that got so bad one day last month, the city forcibly halved traffic by allowing only cars with odd-number plates to drive. Of course this could have nothing do to with Germany phasing out its nuclear power plants and having to reopen coal power plants instead. The…

Sorry for being harsh, but suggesting that German coal power plants are responsible for Paris smog is just bollocks, Paris being around 300km from the French-German border. There are ample reasons to criticise the "Energiewende", but Paris smog is definitely not one of them.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#30

Post by toothbrush »

hrktb wrote: post #24
bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

>The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights The problem with Paris would be more that it's full of parisians. It's very cliche, but sadly true. People are smart and educated but undisciplined, behave unresponsibly, and think about rules as mere guidelines. Being "human" and super lenient is mostly a quality, even when it comes to street rules. Drivers are really bad, bikes don't…

clapping

Seriously, this is what every densely populated city should do.

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