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In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

nytimes.com

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Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#21

Post by logn »

morgante wrote: post #3

Unfortunately, there's a real professional risk in speaking out against this tide of censorship, so I won't say much. This is a great essay on the increasingly anti-controversy left: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/

From your link, I think the author nailed it. The fear is that the current leftist ideas are tomorrow's mainstream ideas and tomorrow's left will be more extreme. The reality is that tomorrow's left will have opinions like the NYT writer. You can see the inverse of this on the right, too: Rand Paul has surpassed Sarah Palin; Alex Jones surpassed Glenn Beck.

Edit to add: So the progression of political trends isn't linear. Liberals push for the next new idea and conservatives want to hang on to (or revive) some other value, but (hopefully) neither is going to endlessly push their agenda today until it's some authoritarian mockery of itself.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#22

Post by A_COMPUTER »

GuiA wrote: post #2

Is this phenomenon observable in cultures that are generally accepted as more progressively feminist than the US? (e.g. northern European countries, Germany, etc) I'm not American and I don't know much about feminism, so for me it's hard to tell the proportions with which these ideas come from US culture vs feminism (there are accounts of UK based initiatives, but there is heavy cross pollination between the US and U…

As the article mentions, a lot of the terms and concepts being used existed in feminism as long ago as decades before they became widespread now. I remember this stuff being made fun of in the 80s and 90s when it was considered fringe. I don't really see how anybody can deny the connection.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#23

Post by jckt »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #19

The more I see this kind of thing the more I am starting to fear that this is an unintended consequence of the internet. Similarly to being raised in a cult, the internet gives people the ability to spend most of their time in a community that reinforces their world view while forcing out any dissenting view points. Subcultures on the internet tend to trend towards the more and more extreme as anybody expressing an o…

I think the Internet as it was originally designed would have had the opposite effect. I mostly browse the "old" Internet -- i.e. static pages and the like. And all I really see is a diversity of opinion. It's honestly difficult to find someone I completely agree on any given day.

But the rise in "recommendation engines" (Facebook, Tumblr, etc) and even "news aggregators" (yes, the irony) may indeed impart the provincial-ising effect you mentioned. As people are automatically fed information that they have been measured to prefer, they end up grossly overestimating how widely-held their views really are.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#24

Post by morgante »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #19

The more I see this kind of thing the more I am starting to fear that this is an unintended consequence of the internet. Similarly to being raised in a cult, the internet gives people the ability to spend most of their time in a community that reinforces their world view while forcing out any dissenting view points. Subcultures on the internet tend to trend towards the more and more extreme as anybody expressing an o…

> Is it any wonder that now all the young adults entering university raised in this manner now behave this way?

I think you're painting too broad a brush. The problem isn't that the majority of college students think this way, it's that the majority don't care much either way and a vocal minority works hard to institute punishments for anyone who opposes them.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#25

Post by EdwardDiego »

tunesmith wrote: post #13
GuiA wrote: post #2

Is this phenomenon observable in cultures that are generally accepted as more progressively feminist than the US? (e.g. northern European countries, Germany, etc) I'm not American and I don't know much about feminism, so for me it's hard to tell the proportions with which these ideas come from US culture vs feminism (there are accounts of UK based initiatives, but there is heavy cross pollination between the US and U…

This sounds like a conclusion looking for evidence. What's with the interest in blaming this on feminism?

I think that the parent comment is merely interested if this exists in societies like Sweden where feminism as a philosophy is more entrenched.

As for why he's asking the question - because activist intersectional feminism appears to be leading the trend towards these safe spaces, I guess? It was the focus of the article ("rape culture" as a concept is, as far as I can tell, a feminist one), although it segued into the racism/Islamophobia at the end.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#26

Post by nailer »

joeclark77 wrote: post #15
DanFeldman wrote: post #9

I can definitely relate first hand to this as a current college student. To borrow some jargon, I absolutely feel 'unsafe' discussing many of these topics in public, and I don't hold controversial or polarizing opinions. Some people quickly label others as racist or misogynistic for presenting contrary viewpoints. Granted, those who seek to shut out debate by this sort of censorship are probably not worth debating, i…

You used to hear American liberals saying things like "I disagree with your position, but I would defend to the death your right to express it." It was part of the creed that they thought defined them as "progressive". Funny, you don't hear that much any more.

The authoritarian left around 2010 adopted the language of the authoritarian right of the early 2000s.

'If you disagree with me, you hate America' became 'if you disagree with me you hate women'.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#27

Post by BurningFrog »

KFW504 wrote: post #4

Creating a safe space seems very reasonable, but I'm not sure I agree that the implication is that the remaining space is therefore fundamentally "unsafe." Emotional topics can definitely benefit from intellectual discussion, but it is not unreasonable to say that a portion of the population may very well not want to be a part of it

Perhaps that is why the word "safe" was chosen. It's a fairly odd term for what it actually is.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#28

Post by morgante »

logn wrote: post #21
morgante wrote: post #3

Unfortunately, there's a real professional risk in speaking out against this tide of censorship, so I won't say much. This is a great essay on the increasingly anti-controversy left: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/

From your link, I think the author nailed it. The fear is that the current leftist ideas are tomorrow's mainstream ideas and tomorrow's left will be more extreme. The reality is that tomorrow's left will have opinions like the NYT writer. You can see the inverse of this on the right, too: Rand Paul has surpassed Sarah Palin; Alex Jones surpassed Glenn Beck. Edit to add: So the progression of political trends isn't li…

Yup! That idea gives me hope that we are not in an inexorable decline of intellectual thought. Fashions, including intellectual ones, are both faster to appear and slower lived than actual ideological shifts.

I think it's telling that while political and ideological fashions fall in and out of favor, actual policies tend to progress towards effectiveness.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#29

Post by tunesmith »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #25
tunesmith wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a conclusion looking for evidence. What's with the interest in blaming this on feminism?

I think that the parent comment is merely interested if this exists in societies like Sweden where feminism as a philosophy is more entrenched. As for why he's asking the question - because activist intersectional feminism appears to be leading the trend towards these safe spaces, I guess? It was the focus of the article ("rape culture" as a concept is, as far as I can tell, a feminist one), although it segued into t…

You're right, I flipped some words in reading the first sentence and thought it was getting at something else. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#30

Post by EdwardDiego »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #19

The more I see this kind of thing the more I am starting to fear that this is an unintended consequence of the internet. Similarly to being raised in a cult, the internet gives people the ability to spend most of their time in a community that reinforces their world view while forcing out any dissenting view points. Subcultures on the internet tend to trend towards the more and more extreme as anybody expressing an o…

> Similarly to being raised in a cult, the internet gives people the ability to spend most of their time in a community that reinforces their world view while forcing out any dissenting view points.

This has always been my thinking around the more unusual subcultures closely tied to the Internet such as vores etc.

Prior to the net, if your fetish was being eaten by a dragon, chances are it was yours and yours alone within your accessible social circles. Espousing it openly would lead (rightly or wrongly, I make no judgement, each to his own) to social ridicule at best, ostracism at worst. But with the internet, you can now find like-minded groups who will tell you that your interest in being eaten by dragons is entirely normal. People who join those communities to disagree will usually be banned or removed somehow.

I've chosen an extreme example, but you'll find similar in other online subcultures - in my opinion, the smaller, the more likely the group-think.

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