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The joyless world of data-driven startups

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21–30 of 78 posts

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#21
post #13

Lots of ignorance in the article and some of the comments regarding data-driven decision making. Does the author realize how much of the civilization around us is built and guided by data-driven decisions? Also, people/companies not being able to effectively use their measurements to their advantage is not really evidence against the idea itself. When your model doesn't work, it's not modeling that's broken, it's jus…

Do you realize how much of civilization was built through intuition?

As great as data is, it is also limited. Why? Because we can never gather enough data. All our data is just a simplification of what's actually going on.

Essentially we're just grabbing data that's generated by black-box tests on systems that are astronomically more complex then we can comprehend. In many cases the data tells only a fraction of the story. It's akin to some alien race trying to understand the a computer desktop by measuring the electrical inputs on a usb port and seeing how that effects the voltage output of the hdmi port.

--

Here's a telling example of the power of intuition by a quote from steve jobs responding to Marc Andreessen inquiring about the "critical" problem the iphone had of "not having a physical keyboard.":

‘They’ll get used to it.’

Any datapoint you gathered on keyboards back in the day would have told you otherwise!

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#22
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The failure is the failure to generate novelty or adequately explore alternatives. Perhaps you value novelty more than the average person. What might not be "adequate" for you might very well be adequate for a huge portion of people. Throughout this comment you mention several potential goals of content producers (being memorable, advancing the art, changing someone's life, etc.), but you make no argument for why t…

It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art. I guess that what he meant is that global maxima is better than local maxima (which is clearly true), and data-driven vision is a hill climbing strategy, thus locking you into a local maxima.

> It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art.

Perhaps that's true with all else being equal, but clearly all else isn't equal.

> I guess that what he meant is that global maxima is better than local maxima (which is clearly true), and data-driven vision is a hill climbing strategy, thus locking you into a local maxima.

My issue is that none of those examples are backed by any evidence that they are not doing a decent job of finding a global maximum.

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#24
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The failure is the failure to generate novelty or adequately explore alternatives. Perhaps you value novelty more than the average person. What might not be "adequate" for you might very well be adequate for a huge portion of people. Throughout this comment you mention several potential goals of content producers (being memorable, advancing the art, changing someone's life, etc.), but you make no argument for why t…

It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art. I guess that what he meant is that global maxima is better than local maxima (which is clearly true), and data-driven vision is a hill climbing strategy, thus locking you into a local maxima.

> It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art.

Better in what way?

Let's say Movie A is a well loved blockbuster that millions of people see and enjoy. Movie B is a very mixed piece that isn't really enjoyable to watch, but "advances the art" in some key ways. Movie C is an even more well loved blockbuster than movie A, which even more millions of people will see and enjoy, but that was only made because the director was one of the few that really understood Movie B.

The argument, as I understand it, is that Movie B is somehow objectively better than Movie A and Movie C, because it enables Movie C to exist, even though Movie C isn't actually good, because it doesn't advance the art? That doesn't make sense to me. The journey has value only to the extent that the destination is valuable, no? If C is trash, then what was the point of "advancing the art" enough that we could make C? (Conversely, if we're discussing "advancing the art" in a way that isn't required to make anything anyone wants to watch, then we're clearly not discussing finding a global maxima, right?)

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#25
post #13

Lots of ignorance in the article and some of the comments regarding data-driven decision making. Does the author realize how much of the civilization around us is built and guided by data-driven decisions? Also, people/companies not being able to effectively use their measurements to their advantage is not really evidence against the idea itself. When your model doesn't work, it's not modeling that's broken, it's jus…

Do you realize how much of civilization was built through intuition? As great as data is, it is also limited. Why? Because we can never gather enough data. All our data is just a simplification of what's actually going on. Essentially we're just grabbing data that's generated by black-box tests on systems that are astronomically more complex then we can comprehend. In many cases the data tells only a fraction of the…

I pretty much agree with you 100%, but I hate it when people use Steve Jobs quotes. He was better at this than almost anybody else, the rest of us need some help and some luck.

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#27
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The failure is the failure to generate novelty or adequately explore alternatives. Enough people might reliable go see 25 sequels, but none of those films will be memorable. None will advance the art of film-making. None will change anyone's life or mentality or affect the culture in any meaningful way. Being data driven means chasing the biggest, loudest signal in your data set. It means pandering to that signal, be…

> The failure is the failure to generate novelty or adequately explore alternatives. Perhaps you value novelty more than the average person. What might not be "adequate" for you might very well be adequate for a huge portion of people. Throughout this comment you mention several potential goals of content producers (being memorable, advancing the art, changing someone's life, etc.), but you make no argument for why t…

> Perhaps you value novelty... > What might not be "adequate" for you...

It isn't about what he values versus what you value. What the author complains about are well known problems with recommendation engines. Take the naive reco algo - "You just bought a 50 inch Philips TV. You might also like - 50 inch Sony TV, 50 inch LG TV, 50 inch Samsung TV, 50 inch ..." - See the problem ? I already bought my fucking TV, you can't expect me to buy more & more of the same or similar goods.

Then there's the CF algorithm & its variants, with well known problems - namely, they don't actually match content to one's preferences. Typically, one POV dominates across the board due to the sparsity of the matrix, & getting the diversity required for the matrix to fill out takes a long long time and a very large number of people with diverse opinions. You mistakenly give a five star rating to Godfather & you are bombarded with mafia movies for a long time. You attempt to confuse the system by giving Pretty Woman five stars as well. Then the system tries to gamely proceed by suggesting "Those who watched Godfather AND Pretty Woman are more likely to watch - So I married an Axe murderer."

Can't win.

There are auto-complete screenplay software that basically make a composite of the top 100 best selling screenplays & do what in the industry is called a flip. Namely, change male to female, winner to loser, comedy to tragedy etc. These data-driven screenplay software might suggest that if you take the ladies from Thelma & Louise & replace them with grizzly old men, you get Unforgiven.

There are lyric generation software with the same flavor, umpteen loop generators & infinite jukeboxes, content recommendation systems along the same lines - since you just starred this code sample on angular, you will enjoy this github repo on react,...

Hopefully you see the downside.

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#28
Personally I enjoyed this article.

I'm working within several different businesses right now, and the consistent theme I'm trying to relate to the folks I work with is that data-driven techniques can take you right up to the edge of what is known to be possible. It's the people who work with the ambiguity there and take leaps into the unknown that ultimately change things. It's fine to want to be part of the pack, but for the really ambitious folks being at the front-edge of the pack is still being part of the pack. Learning to make the move out in front is the hard part.

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art. I guess that what he meant is that global maxima is better than local maxima (which is clearly true), and data-driven vision is a hill climbing strategy, thus locking you into a local maxima.

> It's seems clear that any content that advances the art is better than a content doesn't advance the art. Perhaps that's true with all else being equal, but clearly all else isn't equal. > I guess that what he meant is that global maxima is better than local maxima (which is clearly true), and data-driven vision is a hill climbing strategy, thus locking you into a local maxima. My issue is that none of those exampl…

It's true in the sense that what makes technology and culture interesting is invention, not endless recycling.

You're pretty much suggesting that using strong feedback to force culture to stay within a tiny area of the total possible cultural phase space is just as interesting as allowing chaotic exploration of the entire space.

It's not just an argument against creativity, it's an argument against invention in general.

>My issue is that none of those examples are backed by any evidence that they are not doing a decent job of finding a global maximum.

That's the thing about global maxima - you only know that you've found a global maximum if you've explored the entire space.

Otherwise you've just stumbled across a local attractor, and you're stuck in a loop around it.

This isn't even a good analogy, because cultural attractors are contingent, and they vary over time. They're also unpredictable.

The reason they capture attention isn't because they're maxima in some analytic sense. They become found maxima because they summarise some aspect of human experience, so they appeal to a lot of people at once.

The spectrum of possible maxima is mysterious and not understood, which is how you get - say - Harry Potter coming out of nowhere and captivating a generation.

Culture is music, not a sine wave. You don't just want a single signal - you want a mix of related-but-different signals running all the time.

Re: The joyless world of data-driven startups

#30
post #27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The failure is the failure to generate novelty or adequately explore alternatives. Perhaps you value novelty more than the average person. What might not be "adequate" for you might very well be adequate for a huge portion of people. Throughout this comment you mention several potential goals of content producers (being memorable, advancing the art, changing someone's life, etc.), but you make no argument for why t…

> Perhaps you value novelty... > What might not be "adequate" for you... It isn't about what he values versus what you value. What the author complains about are well known problems with recommendation engines. Take the naive reco algo - "You just bought a 50 inch Philips TV. You might also like - 50 inch Sony TV, 50 inch LG TV, 50 inch Samsung TV, 50 inch ..." - See the problem ? I already bought my fucking TV, you…

I understand the general argument, and I don't disagree in general. My intuition is that showing 50 inch TVs to someone who just bought one is not ideal [0]. My point is that the specific examples provided (Hollywood blockbusters, etc.) are not accompanied by any evidence or reasoning to convince me that these industries are not doing a good job of satisfying the market.

[0] That said, I've seen lots of counterintuitive but very real phenomena regarding user behavior, so I won't claim to be that confident about this being ineffective. Perhaps people return TVs a lot and buy other ones. I don't have the data.

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