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Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

tromp.github.io

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Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#21

Post by jessaustin »

everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

...'false complexity' the game isnt really complex it just has loads of rules and random stuff...

Another term I've seen for this concept is "complication". Then one may speak of simple, complex, or complicated systems. Complexity is (perhaps unexpected) behavior that arises from the interaction of relatively few basic behaviors. Complication comes instead from just heaping more and more crap on top of the existing system.

There is no accounting for taste. Many people appreciate complication more than complexity.

I have played go, but not enough to be any good at it.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#22

Post by davepeck »

everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

(I do. If anyone's interested, I made a little site you can play a casual game of Go; no complexity to getting started, since play is by email correspondence:

http://go.davepeck.org/

The sources are at https://github.com/davepeck/game-of-go under the MIT license -- I have a long list of things I'd love to work on if I could find the time.)

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#23

Post by Dowwie »

everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

I really enjoy playing go. I found the online platforms burdensome and poor at matching me with beginners of similar experience. For years I've imagined Go bringing the world closer together through a platform that combines use of a physical board with Internet connectivity. Playing in person is so much more gratifying.

if anyone would like to simulate this experience together we can Skype play

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#24

Post by MichaelGG »

tromp wrote: post #15
chizthtor wrote: post #5

They got 57 legal position for a 2x2 game of go. They're counting all the symmetries. They're not pruning anything. facepalm

Few people can believe that there are as many as 386,356,909,593 games on the tiny 2x2 board. Needless to say, nothing is pruned there either. A game could visit as many as 48 of the legal positions and have dozens of passes (but only 2 consecutive ones, which ends the game).

Well it "ends" the game but play can resume. Plus, there's the crazy hypothetical play in the way-over-complicated Japanese rules. I think, in theory, you can play multiple almost-compete games after the game is "over". Each hypothetical play is just to resolve one group, as I understand.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#25

Post by tlarkworthy »

DavidSJ wrote: post #6
chizthtor wrote: post #5

They got 57 legal position for a 2x2 game of go. They're counting all the symmetries. They're not pruning anything. facepalm

Rotation and mirroring only buy you a factor of 8, and that's for positions that aren't already symmetric.

exactly, spatial symmetries occupy a vanishingly small proportion of the state space that its not worth the added complexity and runtime cost (unlike the color symmetry).

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#26

Post by motbob »

everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

What makes complexity "false"? Is it "complexity I don't find interesting"?

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#27

Post by darkmighty »

everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

In Dota for example the false complexity is what allows someone with not so great analytical thinking but great knowledge of the complexity (items and hero combinations) to fare pretty well. It helps level the field. Although comparing go to RTS is extremely misleading. RTS's have pretty deep of what I call 'continuous tactics' where you need to plan an optimal control of your character with a continuum rather than discrete set of plays. It presents incredibly rich situations which you cannot explain with the kind of strategy you see in go or chess, for instance. The same goes for games like counter-strike, once you take into account limited aiming capability. I think it's beautiful how those games can hide this richness into a very fun game at low levels, and how they don't seem so hard just because we're so good at spatial reasoning and planning.

Here's an illustration:

http://youtu.be/5e8HZqF3cyk?t=2m1s

I also like this quote by von Neumann:

"If people do not believe that mathematics is simple, it is only because they do not realize how complicated life is."

I confess I do wonder what would be the equivalent 'go of RTS games', where the minimal, essential dynamics are captured without all the bling.

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#28

Post by [deleted] »

jessaustin wrote: post #21
everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

...'false complexity' the game isnt really complex it just has loads of rules and random stuff... Another term I've seen for this concept is "complication". Then one may speak of simple, complex, or complicated systems. Complexity is (perhaps unexpected) behavior that arises from the interaction of relatively few basic behaviors. Complication comes instead from just heaping more and more crap on top of the existing s…

[deleted]

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#29

Post by [deleted] »

Dowwie wrote: post #23
everyone wrote: post #11

Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt…

I really enjoy playing go. I found the online platforms burdensome and poor at matching me with beginners of similar experience. For years I've imagined Go bringing the world closer together through a platform that combines use of a physical board with Internet connectivity. Playing in person is so much more gratifying. if anyone would like to simulate this experience together we can Skype play

[deleted]

Re: Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go

#30

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #28
jessaustin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...'false complexity' the game isnt really complex it just has loads of rules and random stuff... Another term I've seen for this concept is "complication". Then one may speak of simple, complex, or complicated systems. Complexity is (perhaps unexpected) behavior that arises from the interaction of relatively few basic behaviors. Complication comes instead from just heaping more and more crap on top of the existing s…

[deleted]

[deleted]
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