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Coding Like a Girl

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Re: Coding Like a Girl

#21

Post by thomasmarcelis »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #12
spcoll wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feedback makes it clear that acting feminine is considered a weakness, instead of a strength. You shouldn't be ashamed to look beautiful, wear dresses and make-up, and present cute slides with a pink theme and occasional kitty picture. This is what the whole "like a girl" is about: if you express your femininity in the things you do and the way you look, people associate that with incompetence.

Exactly. If you were to make a stereotypically "masculine" presentation, you wouldn't get negative comments on it.

Pink just is a bright colour. Bright colours can distract if used plenty. I've had the same comment on using too many yellow.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#22

Post by Alphasite_ »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #12
spcoll wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feedback makes it clear that acting feminine is considered a weakness, instead of a strength. You shouldn't be ashamed to look beautiful, wear dresses and make-up, and present cute slides with a pink theme and occasional kitty picture. This is what the whole "like a girl" is about: if you express your femininity in the things you do and the way you look, people associate that with incompetence.

Exactly. If you were to make a stereotypically "masculine" presentation, you wouldn't get negative comments on it.

What, blue with tanks all over it? I think you'd get more than a couple of comments.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#23

Post by spiffyman »

gaius wrote: post #6

The dress story vs jeans, would apply equally to a guy in a suit and tie vs a hoodie.

I don't think that's true. You might get disregarded as a "business guy" if you show up to a meetup in a suit. But it's just as likely that people will just assume you're in financials. One of the better Python speakers I know of shows up everywhere in a suit. But women consistently report not being taken seriously when wearing dresses.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#24

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

spiffyman wrote: post #19

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not f…

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo...

It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#25

Post by [deleted] »

spiffyman wrote: post #19

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not f…

[deleted]

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#26

Post by JDiculous »

spcoll wrote: post #9
thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

This feedback makes it clear that acting feminine is considered a weakness, instead of a strength. You shouldn't be ashamed to look beautiful, wear dresses and make-up, and present cute slides with a pink theme and occasional kitty picture. This is what the whole "like a girl" is about: if you express your femininity in the things you do and the way you look, people associate that with incompetence.

What you just said only applies to the pink slides comment. Excess fidgeting and uptalk are gender-neutral and make a presentation weaker whether you're male or female.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#27

Post by PuffinBlue »

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

There are a lot of valid points in the article and I enjoyed it. These 'gender-specific' points are of course not gender specific at all though.

I've done a huge amount of presenting and briefing and so has my wife. We have both received feedback like this. Personal appearance, bearing, manner, speech patterns, intonation, inflection and even breathing noise let alone a million other things have come up in feedback for both of us.

The underlying point is it's possible to be an annoying presenter as a male AND as a female.

Thinking about it, I suppose much of what this article says also applies simply to 'those who don't look like they fit', regardless of their gender, such that if the article was about 'age' it would still be entirely valid.

I'll sign off by saying that if you really want prejudice, try raising kids as a full time Dad. If you think men can be bad with 'those that don't fit' then you are in for a shock compared to what women can be like!

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#28

Post by pornel »

thomasmarcelis wrote: post #5

One thing I don't agree with, how is the following feedback gender-specific?: “Why are your slides so pink? It’s very distracting.” “Stop pushing your hair behind your ear when you present. It’s very distracting.” “Your voice goes up after every sentence you say.” I feel like this is all valid feedback. Back in university we would also get feedback on our behaviour during our presentations or the look of our slides.

I think the objection was that it was feedback about how it was presented, not about what has been presented. It may be valid feedback, but not necessarily the most relevant one.

And I think she finds it problematic because women are more often openly judged by how they look rather than what they do, and this fits the pattern.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#29

Post by rjbwork »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #17
mgkimsal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voices going up - as in, asking a question(?) - is annoying whether it's a female voice or male voice.

It's a feature heavily associated with female voices. So it is discrimination against female voices. It's also not something people do consciously, it is a feature of dialect. And studies show that why people dislike a dialect has nothing to do with its actual aural qualities, and everything to do with its social status .

You can say what you want, and studies can say what they do, but but vocal fry is annoying. It literally makes me cringe and it grates my ears to hear it.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#30

Post by partisan »

mgkimsal wrote: post #14
skj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially with the vocal comment, many people get annoyed with female voices when they're in a supposedly serious context. But the thing is that it's not actually some fundamentally annoying or distracting quality of the voice- it's that it's different from what they expect: a male voice. "This American Life" had a great segment about this, targeting "vocal fry" in particular: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a…

Voices going up - as in, asking a question(?) - is annoying whether it's a female voice or male voice.

Completely agreed. A hundred years ago, this would have been some sort of local affect, but thanks to the internet, nationwide TV, radio, etc, today it's a plague.
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