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It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

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Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#21

Post by Balgair »

jasonzemos wrote: post #8

Is it possible to hold the position that the NSA should be conducting signals intelligence, data collection, and code-breaking (and yes, email snooping) -- yet at the same time hold the position that the blatantly malicious activities: 0day exploits, software and hardware backdooring, etc should not be allowed? Why commit ourselves to a massive overhaul of the entire NSA when we can address the actual problem here wi…

True, I think the Snowden events have uncovered the unfortunate reality that there is a gigantic hole in the boat. In the end, the only way we get out of this is to redesign the system, from hardware on up, to be secure. The NSA, as per their mandate from Congress as an expression of the will of the people of the USA, is using the holes in the boat to advance the security of the nation. It is literally their job to do this. Again, the issue is that the boat is leaky. Maybe we humans decide that this leaky problem is not all that bad, and like biology, a certain percentage of 'sinking' is acceptable versus the cost to make a better boat. I dont think this is true though, because lawyers. Making a better and more secure net is the end of the game, it is only time that stands between us.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#22

Post by acidburnNSA »

This reminds me a little of the breakup of the Atomic Energy Commission. The AEC was supposed regulate and promote nuclear energy. This conflict of interest was recognized in the 70s and it was split into the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and ERDA (which soon became the DOE).

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#23

Post by adventured »

edison_carter wrote: post #16
angersock wrote: post #6

Second, all surveillance of Americans should be moved to the FBI. The FBI is charged with counterterrorism in the United States, and it needs to play that role. Any operations focused against U.S. citizens need to be subject to U.S. law, and the FBI is the best place to apply that law. No no no a thousand times no . One of the only saving graces about the massive surveillance from the NSA is that, I'm willing to wage…

But.. what about parallel construction? We know that the NSA is feeding tips to, among others, the DEA and ATFE -- they're just pretending to find out about criminal activity in other-than-blanket-surveilance ways. The practice is so commonplace that the NSA has a special division for seeding the evidence to other agencies, and there are indications that even state and local law enforcement agencies are in on the fun…

The argument being made by the parent, is that it would be far worse than the abuse that is already occurring, were the FBI to have direct control of the equivalent spying systems and data trove that the NSA already has on US citizens.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#24

Post by mason240 »

strictnein wrote: post #9

Read "The Puzzle Palace" and find out why the NSA is structured like it is. The US gov has been re-orging the NSA and factions inside the gov have been fighting over its control since its inception. To use an annoyingly beat to death phrase: we haven't seen its final form yet. Actually a pretty good article overall, but these two lines bother me greatly: > "What was supposed to be a single agency with a dual mission—…

Security is their objective; using all encompassing communication spying is their strategy for accomplishing that objective.

This comment is not an endorsement of any NSA policies.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#25

Post by walod »

What about the problem of distinguishing domestic vs foreign communications? NSA already minimizes American information, plus FBI doesn't have authority to track who called to or from the US to a foreign nation like Pakistan from what I understand, so no phone meta data. The NSA may be too big but I haven't seen anyone bring an actual technical solution for setting the boundaries and so forth.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#27

Post by rikacomet »

I would rather not agree with this "Break up the NSA" thing. I do follow the public opinion that its surveillance is wrong, but this is not the fix.

NSA is a organization, a empty shell without its people. If the people are not going to change their mindset in short-term (social change in mentality), it means that law has to be changed in short-term, so that very mentality gets more time to change.

But this is where I must contradict myself, does these people who are benefiting from such "Its abuse, not use of power" deserve such a delay? Given that for every second the situation remains the same, countless bottom-of-pyramid-people across the globe would keep suffering? Or have we become TOO used to looking away?

Also, a very important question is, that 'has NSA's Information Collection System become such a tool, where bulk of Americans are used to collect data on Bulk of Americans, and put that in the hands of Few, who then abuse it?' Or NSA has more to it than just the empty shell called: "Interest".

As Voltaire said: "You must ask, whether it is 'Just Interest' or 'National Interest'. "

A supporting question is, who is the Nation anyway? A few or all? Abraham Lincoln ought to be right here. But, fast forward 200 years, It is also important to question, whether "Nations" especially the idea of "America" stands as it is, given the fact that it is America itself that pushed for a "Globalized World" and still does.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#28

Post by randcraw »

edison_carter wrote: post #16
angersock wrote: post #6

Second, all surveillance of Americans should be moved to the FBI. The FBI is charged with counterterrorism in the United States, and it needs to play that role. Any operations focused against U.S. citizens need to be subject to U.S. law, and the FBI is the best place to apply that law. No no no a thousand times no . One of the only saving graces about the massive surveillance from the NSA is that, I'm willing to wage…

But.. what about parallel construction? We know that the NSA is feeding tips to, among others, the DEA and ATFE -- they're just pretending to find out about criminal activity in other-than-blanket-surveilance ways. The practice is so commonplace that the NSA has a special division for seeding the evidence to other agencies, and there are indications that even state and local law enforcement agencies are in on the fun…

Exactly. Right now the NSA can escape all legal oversight because it has historically operated physically outside the US and under military governance. Since 9-11 and the Patriot Acts, BSA operations have moved inside the US. And in concert with the sharing of intel across military and civilian, the NSA now operates freely across all spaces. This was never intended by statute, and virtually no oversight is in place to ensure 1) intel is gathered lawfully or 2) info is shared lawfully. Unlike the NSA, the FBI must operate wholly within the US and state civilian court system, so its gathering and disbursing of info is much more closely overseen and regulated.

It's also become very clear from their response to Snowden's revelations that NSA is not going to get any closer oversight any time soon. The FBI and its partners cannot hope to maintain a comparable cloak of invulnerability. To Bruce's suggestion, I vote yea.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#29

Post by logn »

Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide? It doesn't seem like a re-org is the proper response to institutionalized torture, semi-automated assassination campaigns, and creation of a panopticon.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#30

Post by adventured »

javert wrote: post #18

I'm thankful to live in a country where we have the freedom to publish this kind of thing. (That said, I think that freedom will no last too much longer.)

I've got an idea. In the faux name of net neutrality, let's give one of the most abusive governments when it comes to privacy, vast control over regulating the domestic Internet, and let's allow them pass those new regulations without anyone external being allowed to review them ahead of time. What could possibly go wrong? It's not like the government will massively expand their direct control of the Internet, and use that to chill free speech. And it's not like we'll be sitting here in ten years, listening to pro net neutrality campaigners making excuses about how those weren't the laws they had in mind; after all, who knew the government would abuse their new powers, nobody could have guessed such a thing.

Whoops, too late:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/dear-fcc-rethink-those...

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