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Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

quantamagazine.org

21–30 of 39 posts

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#22
post #10
post #3

> In a single instance of the prisoner’s dilemma, the best strategy is to defect — squeal on your partner and you’ll get less time. No, that is not right, if it was there would be no dilemma, and this subject would not be discussed ad nauseam. The whole point is that the situation is symmetrical for both players, they should reach the same conclusion and act the same way ... and using the strategy of cooperation thei…

Cooperating is strongly dominated by defecting in Prisoners Dilemma. This is an obvious and very basic game theory result. Game Theory models strategic situations and doesn't offer insight outside what is modeled. If you think there should be communication supporting cooperation in the game, that game is NOT the Prisoners Dilemma and is in fact another game. The Prisoners Dilemma is a model that is stacked very much…

If I duplicated you and made you play a PD against your duplicate and then sent you off to different corners of the universe to enjoy the spoils, would you cooperate or defect?

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#23
post #10
post #3

> In a single instance of the prisoner’s dilemma, the best strategy is to defect — squeal on your partner and you’ll get less time. No, that is not right, if it was there would be no dilemma, and this subject would not be discussed ad nauseam. The whole point is that the situation is symmetrical for both players, they should reach the same conclusion and act the same way ... and using the strategy of cooperation thei…

Cooperating is strongly dominated by defecting in Prisoners Dilemma. This is an obvious and very basic game theory result. Game Theory models strategic situations and doesn't offer insight outside what is modeled. If you think there should be communication supporting cooperation in the game, that game is NOT the Prisoners Dilemma and is in fact another game. The Prisoners Dilemma is a model that is stacked very much…

I would give this a read:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/tn/the_true_prisoners_dilemma/

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#24
A monkey will scream to warn its neighbors when a predator is nearby. But in doing so, it draws dangerous attention to itself. Scientists going back to Darwin have struggled to explain how this kind of altruistic behavior evolved.

Seriously, this is not that hard. If the prey is relatively mobile, for most predators the gig is up if the prey is aware of them. If the prey is alerting it's friends that a predator is around, then that particular animal has seen the predator and is usually therefore relatively safe from it. For example, if an angry dog is barrelling towards your unsuspecting friend, shouting out may draw attention towards you, but you can shout and take countermeasures at the same time. It's not a zero-sum game, and you don't need hundreds of iterations to make it beneficial to yourself. I mean, hell, watch a random Attenborough nature special, and you're likely to hear him talk about the prey spotting the predator, leading to an abandonment of the hunt.

The strange maths continues with the "Bat's Dilemma" example. In the case where both bats do the same thing, share or not share, there are disconcordant outcomes. Same population of bats, same amount of food available, yet somehow there is much more hunger if they don't share. This would only make sense if each bat only occasionally had a meal from a source which was much larger than it could eat by itself, then had a long period without finding food... in which case, sharing the excess really isn't a dilemma, since it's excess. I really don't understand the maths in that example.

Game theory really does seem to be a hammer desperately searching for anything that looks like it might possibly be a nail. It is interesting that the end of the article says it has some suitability for microbe research, where things are much more stimulus/response and much less complex.

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#26
post #10
post #3

> In a single instance of the prisoner’s dilemma, the best strategy is to defect — squeal on your partner and you’ll get less time. No, that is not right, if it was there would be no dilemma, and this subject would not be discussed ad nauseam. The whole point is that the situation is symmetrical for both players, they should reach the same conclusion and act the same way ... and using the strategy of cooperation thei…

Cooperating is strongly dominated by defecting in Prisoners Dilemma. This is an obvious and very basic game theory result. Game Theory models strategic situations and doesn't offer insight outside what is modeled. If you think there should be communication supporting cooperation in the game, that game is NOT the Prisoners Dilemma and is in fact another game. The Prisoners Dilemma is a model that is stacked very much…

I always found it interesting that the Prisoner's Dilemma is so context-free. For a lot of criminals, doing a moderate amount of jail time is far preferable to being a snitch. No point in getting out early if you're facing vicious repercussion from your peers.

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#27
The most interesting point that was glanced at in the article from my point of view is that small changes in conditions lead to big changes regarding optimal strategy. My chaos theory is a little flimisy but I think conceptually a general framework of considering optimal strategies as strange attractors makes sense.

In fact I think it's more interesting to find the systems in which a given strategy is successfull as opposed to finding a successfull strategy given the system. There's all sorts of interesting questions that arise from this point of view the most obvious one being how does one (or animal populations) change the inputs that form the system in such a way that it leads to the given strategy being successfull.

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#28
Many people seem to have game theory backward.

Game theory is a modeling tool that assumes all relevant utility is baked into the payoff matrix.

Games (payoff matrices) that capture unique outcomes/behaviors are often given memorable names from human situations that approximate the games. For example the matrix referred to as 'prisoners dilemma' demonstrates a situation where dominant actions give a suboptimal outcome. In describing where this game may apply, economists found simultaneous interrogations to be a colorful and close enough approximation to the idealized game.

It's not the case that game theorists started with the situation of interrogating prisoners and ended up with the game matrix.

Similarly, for anyone saying that 'that wouldn't happen in real life', you're actually saying that the payoffs don't accurately model the outcomes.

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#29

Rather amusing title since it could be reworded as "Game theory still fails to explain biology." We know organisms cooperate. The fact that we consistently fail to find reasons to cooperate in game theory suggests that the simplifying assumptions that it makes are incorrect. To give only one example, what happens when agents can choose from among a set of games to play with opponents with known histories?

People do cooperate on a self-survival instinct though, cooperating now let's you get ahead of others together. However, there are always competition and hierarchies within the team/group as well that determine choices and game theory within the group cooperating. The larger the team or less dependent then the more each player may be unhappy or not doing the best for themselves personally. For the most part, people c…

For me comparative advantage (economics) was always enough to "justify" cooperation as a good general attitude in life.

Re: Game Theory Calls Cooperation Into Question

#30
post #10
post #3

> In a single instance of the prisoner’s dilemma, the best strategy is to defect — squeal on your partner and you’ll get less time. No, that is not right, if it was there would be no dilemma, and this subject would not be discussed ad nauseam. The whole point is that the situation is symmetrical for both players, they should reach the same conclusion and act the same way ... and using the strategy of cooperation thei…

Cooperating is strongly dominated by defecting in Prisoners Dilemma. This is an obvious and very basic game theory result. Game Theory models strategic situations and doesn't offer insight outside what is modeled. If you think there should be communication supporting cooperation in the game, that game is NOT the Prisoners Dilemma and is in fact another game. The Prisoners Dilemma is a model that is stacked very much…

It gets presented as an obvious and basic game theory result, but it only makes sense if you don't believe in the basic tenants of game theory, amongst which is the claim that it is a theory of maximizing rational actors.

There is no moral choice-making for maximizing rational actors, and both actors in the PD have exactly the same information, including the fact that the other individual is a maximizing rational actor. As such the off diagonal elements of the payoff matrix are irrelevant to any rational decision making because any two rational actors with the same goal will always make the same choice in the same situation. To do anything else would be irrational.

So within the frame of the theory both players know with certainty that because the game is being played by maximizing rational actors that the other player will always do exactly what they do. This is true no matter what they do: the other player will always reach the same conclusion. Rationality dictates it, if rationality means anything at all.

It is only when you smuggle in the possibility of an irrational choice on the part of one of the players that the off-diagonal elements become relevant, because one player can for unaccountable reasons choose to do something irrational, which a maximizing rational actor would never do.

Game theory is not about people. It's about rational actors who want to maximize their payoff. For such entities there is no dilemma, since only the diagonal elements of the matrix matter, and cooperation is the obvious maximizing strategy.

Unfortunately, game theory under this constraint becomes very boring. There is probably a salvagable variant of it that remains interesting, but I'm honestly not sure what it's a theory of. "Semi-rational not-very-smart actors"? That would describe humans reasonably well, I guess. It certainly describes me. Or maybe the decision-maker being analyzed could be considered a rational actor and the rest of the players irrational, although that would be equivalent to playing against a random number generator.

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