Live data from Hacker News

Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

webrtcworld.com

21–30 of 37 posts

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#21
post #6

>Instead of one endpoint pulling down a single unique stream, the P2P approach allows simultaneous users to exchange video segments among themselves rather than each connecting to a server to do so. Issues: -- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. -- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS…

Hey,

I am the founder of the company providing the pluginless peer-to-peer video streaming service the article is talking about (www.streamroot.io).

>-- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds.

Indeed, but it is not so much of an issue: 1. the average video stream bitrate today is 1.5 Mbps, which is closer to the upstream limits than the downstream limits. 2. Our solution is hybrid, so if you can't get all the data from other peers, you just get the rest from the CDN, so even if someone has a 100 kbps uplink, he still contributes to the swarm. 3. With fiber there are more and more people having 100+ Mbps uplink, and these people can serve dozens of others peers, and this balances the asymmetry partially.

>-- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS or reclassified as "business" thereby increasing the billing amount.

This must be different depending your country and ISP, but the upside comparing to some full P2P service like Bittorent is that you share video segments only while you are on the streamer webpage (as soon as you close your tab the p2p stops), and also all the communications are encrypted with DTLS provided by WebRTC, so it is not so easy for ISPs to figure out what is exchanged. And finally, we actually help the ISPs by connecting the peers that use the same ISPs, and are on the same sub-networks first, so they have less peering issues.

>-- too much latency for live mega events (World Cup, etc) because of asymmetry mentioned above. (Your neighbor tweets that Spain scored the winning goal before your P2P stream received the last packets showing that it happened.) Latency for bittorrent is ok, but for live megaevents, no.

I think that this where our technology really differentiates with the old peer-to-peer systems : we don't add any additional latency to the stream, but just use the latency already generated by HTTP streaming protocols like HLS or MPEG-DASH. So with or without our system, you will still have a 20-30 seconds latency with the encoder, as it is already the case with all the professional live streams like the ones used during Superbowl or the World Cup.

As for CDNs cooperating to broadcast a live stream, it is not really the spirit of the CDN market right now, instead what happens is that the Broadcaster can contract one or several backup CDNs for their biggest events, and use them in case the primary CDNs breaks down. This is what happened for the Superbowl stream : NBC had Akamai as their primary CDN, and Level3 as a backup. In the end they didn't have to use the backup, but still paid both CDNs for the event !

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#22

Sorry, but no. For a p2p system to work you need to have a nearest neighbour finder(please wait 5 minutes whilst we probe your network) you then need to have a realtime "rationilser" that will go through and re-route the live stream according to how many peers in one segment are connected to another. Then, you need a number of backup peers for when your current master peer disappears. Then you have to deal with parti…

That can be cached if there's only one system. And BitTorrent DHT takes about 30s to start finding peers. That's a very old type of DHT, a new protocol could prioritize finding closer neighbors.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#23
post #21
post #6

>Instead of one endpoint pulling down a single unique stream, the P2P approach allows simultaneous users to exchange video segments among themselves rather than each connecting to a server to do so. Issues: -- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. -- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS…

Hey, I am the founder of the company providing the pluginless peer-to-peer video streaming service the article is talking about (www.streamroot.io). >-- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. Indeed, but it is not so much of an issue: 1. the average video stream bitrate today is 1.5 Mbps, which is closer to the upstream limits than the downstream limits. 2. Our solution is hybrid,…

We do p2p communications. A big issue is network interruption. Somebody walks around with a laptop or mobile device, roams, link broken and a gap in your experience as it scrambles to reroute. Or somebody else in the house starts to use the network, and your negotiated link drops available bandwidth/congests.

If its free or just for fun, then yes you can go this route. But people paying for an experience are, in our experience, intolerant of any interrupt or quality drop.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#24
post #4

A whole article on p2p video streaming, and yet Popcorn Time [1] is curiously absent. The flagship program that proves p2p movie watching is feasible, even comfortable, when delivered through BitTorrent doesn't get a mention. In a way the program already saved streaming video already. We can only speculate whether the omission is conscious attempt at avoiding linking to risque programs, or does that indicate the arti…

The main difference with the solution the article describes and Popcorn time is that the former can be used by the online broadcaster for their own videos and integrates seamlessly in their webpage, whereas for Popcorn time you need to install the soft, and can only download torrents.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#25
post #6

>Instead of one endpoint pulling down a single unique stream, the P2P approach allows simultaneous users to exchange video segments among themselves rather than each connecting to a server to do so. Issues: -- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. -- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS…

> -- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds.

> -- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS or reclassified as "business tier pricing" thereby increasing the billing amount.

Yes, but ISPs would love to join with p2p to reduce their upstream bills. There are 2 problems currently. First, there is no single protocol or system so maintaining one cache box for each system is crazy (YouTube/Google, Netflix, HBO, Amazon, Hulu... all proprietary). Second, even though there could be a payoff in the long run with savings, there's no immediate payoff for setup.

This could all be solved with a standardized protocol and system. But sadly the big bodies, in particular IEEE, are a bureaucratic mess and filled with industry sponsored members.

Internet is going backwards. Something's gotta give.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#26
post #20
post #6

>Instead of one endpoint pulling down a single unique stream, the P2P approach allows simultaneous users to exchange video segments among themselves rather than each connecting to a server to do so. Issues: -- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. -- ISPs are suspicious of heavy uploads originating from residential homes and could be flagged as "servers" in violation of ISP's TOS…

Doesn't Spotify do p2p for fairly-high-resolution audio already?

As of this time last year, they were slowly migrating from a P2P platform, to only using centralized servers.

However, I do not see much information on this topic other than what was posted nearly a year ago.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I am the founder of the company providing the pluginless peer-to-peer video streaming service the article is talking about (www.streamroot.io). >-- residential/mobile internet service has asymmetric upload/download speeds. Indeed, but it is not so much of an issue: 1. the average video stream bitrate today is 1.5 Mbps, which is closer to the upstream limits than the downstream limits. 2. Our solution is hybrid,…

We do p2p communications. A big issue is network interruption. Somebody walks around with a laptop or mobile device, roams, link broken and a gap in your experience as it scrambles to reroute. Or somebody else in the house starts to use the network, and your negotiated link drops available bandwidth/congests. If its free or just for fun, then yes you can go this route. But people paying for an experience are, in our…

Networks interruptions happen a lot, this is why our system is hybrid: if you didn't have time to get the segment from the peer-to-peer, you dynamically switch back to the CDN to get the missing parts of your video segments, so in practice the quality can't be worse than what you have with the CDN only.

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#28

Sorry, but no. For a p2p system to work you need to have a nearest neighbour finder(please wait 5 minutes whilst we probe your network) you then need to have a realtime "rationilser" that will go through and re-route the live stream according to how many peers in one segment are connected to another. Then, you need a number of backup peers for when your current master peer disappears. Then you have to deal with parti…

Hey, what you describe what clearly the case with old peer-to-peer systems, but things changed a lot. With webRTC and ICE/STUN, the p2p connection takes less than 5s on average and goes through NATs in 95% of the cases. As for the bandwidht issues, it is not a problem as the solution is hybrid and doen't need every peer to be a full seeder.

If you don't beleive me you can always try by yourself, with a Chrome/Firefox/Opera browser : http://demo.streamroot.io

Re: Peer-To-peer Architecture Could Save Streaming Video

#29
post #5
post #2

We had peer to peer streaming 18 years ago. It does not scale for larger audiences, so if it stays on the 'skype' level then it will do fine, otherwise you're going to need some kind of redistribution network to handle the fan-out. If you're willing to tolerate lag and decreasing fidelity you can also use peer-to-peer relaying but this only works for a very limited number of hops.

I'm also skeptical. Off the top of my head, if I had to make this work, I might try two things: 1 - While streaming normally from the CDN, also preload segments from peers. Complexity and client-bloat aside, you don't lose much trying (assuming the client has the bandwidth) 2 - Peering with folk that appear to be close. I feel that doing it by network address or ip->geo lookup might work well.

Hey, founder of the p2p service described in the article here (www.streamroot.io)

This is exactly what we are doing :) We have have a hybrid p2p model that fetches video segments from others peers as long as it can, and switches back to CDN on urgency cases. And our tracker uses geoIp data, ISP and some network topology elements to connect the best candidates together

Post reply on HN