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A Tale of Two Zippers

bunniestudios.com

21–30 of 34 posts

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#21
>I’d like to imagine that most people, after watching a person join pullers to sliders for a couple minutes, will be quite alright to suffer the tiny bump on the tip of their zipper to save another human the fate of having to manually align pullers into sliders for 8 hours a day.

Leaving him in the street with no job...

The worker is happy that the designer don't like the "tabs". And yes, it is more expensive, because the required manual labor.

In any case, you'll be not making him "a favor" by automatizing his job.

I'm pro-automatization, but don't paint it as "a favor" for the ones which will be left without job...

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#22
post #19

This article isn't about zipper manufacturing. While the process of vibratory sorting is interesting, it's not the point Bunnie is making. The point as I see it is that price signalling is a frustratingly blunt instrument. It's annoying that so much of our species' output is channeled towards activities that improve precisely nobody's lives. This is an artifact of how hard it is to communicate throughout the entire s…

I think you are overthinking it in this case. Things that look nice and feel nice sometimes cost more.

Did you read the article? He's not overthinking it, that's what the article is about.

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#23
Seems like a really good designer working with knowledge of manufacturing would design an aesthetically pleasing zipper pull with an asymmetry sufficient to allow such automated orientation (e.g. one end thicker across the width of the pull).

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#24
post #21

>I’d like to imagine that most people, after watching a person join pullers to sliders for a couple minutes, will be quite alright to suffer the tiny bump on the tip of their zipper to save another human the fate of having to manually align pullers into sliders for 8 hours a day. Leaving him in the street with no job... The worker is happy that the designer don't like the "tabs". And yes, it is more expensive, becaus…

Leaving him[1] in the street with no job...

It's not that simple.

While I don't preclude that is a possible outcome, if you read the entire article you see that the fact that smooth zippers are more expensive means they can only be used on more expensive items, even though they don't give any practical increase in quality in terms of reliability.

If those smooth zippers were as cheap to produce as the ones with bumps, then it's possible (likely even? - after all, producers always want to differentiate their good in some way) the decreased cost of production would be invested in adding features that actually do something. One defensible possibility is "mass customization" type production, which relies on each piece being deliberately different in some way. I raise that possibility because most would consider that type of work to be "better" than manually threading zippers, and there could be more people employed.

Clearly there are a lot of things that could happen if both forms of zippers were as cheap to produce. My point is that it is difficult to say for sure the worker would be on the street with no job.

[1] It's more likely that the worker is actually female: Chinese factories generally prefer to hire women. It is only comparatively recently that the ratio pf production line workers has approached 50/50, and as recently as 2006 there were 14 men for every 100 women working on production lines in China. See http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c8948f1e-2653-11e3-8ef6-00144...

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#26
post #24
post #21

>I’d like to imagine that most people, after watching a person join pullers to sliders for a couple minutes, will be quite alright to suffer the tiny bump on the tip of their zipper to save another human the fate of having to manually align pullers into sliders for 8 hours a day. Leaving him in the street with no job... The worker is happy that the designer don't like the "tabs". And yes, it is more expensive, becaus…

Leaving him[1] in the street with no job... It's not that simple. While I don't preclude that is a possible outcome, if you read the entire article you see that the fact that smooth zippers are more expensive means they can only be used on more expensive items, even though they don't give any practical increase in quality in terms of reliability. If those smooth zippers were as cheap to produce as the ones with bumps…

Obviously the manufacturer will try to optimize the BOM, and that includes the cost of the zipper. Just as someone spent an incredible number of hours assembling that plant, someone is also struggling over the BOM everywhere that zipper is used. And you can bet plants that make only indented zippers with even less labor exist.

What I came away with was first, the science of plant automation is far, far more advanced than computer science :-) Second, they've eliminated an incredible about of manual labor already.

Using factory automation as a model, it's interesting to think how software could do the same thing to the marketplace.

I agree with @nl, as long as the worker is there voluntarily, I don't see a problem with a market existing for sweating the small details. The upstream market competes by optimizing their BOM, so if the zipper isn't worth the cost, it will phase out.

To argue that it shouldn't be worth the cost because the job seems to boring for you is odd. There are many people who would be very happy to have such a job. If and when there is a future where there does not exist a large number of people would be overqualified for such a job, let me know.

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#27
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving him[1] in the street with no job... It's not that simple. While I don't preclude that is a possible outcome, if you read the entire article you see that the fact that smooth zippers are more expensive means they can only be used on more expensive items, even though they don't give any practical increase in quality in terms of reliability. If those smooth zippers were as cheap to produce as the ones with bumps…

Obviously the manufacturer will try to optimize the BOM, and that includes the cost of the zipper. Just as someone spent an incredible number of hours assembling that plant, someone is also struggling over the BOM everywhere that zipper is used. And you can bet plants that make only indented zippers with even less labor exist. What I came away with was first, the science of plant automation is far, far more advanced…

To argue that it shouldn't be worth the cost because the job seems to boring for you is odd. There are many people who would be very happy to have such a job. If and when there is a future where there does not exist a large number of people would be overqualified for such a job, let me know.

That oversimplifies what I'm saying.

A simplified version is this: It would be better if everyone was able to strive for self-actualisation[1] without the economic constraints that require people to work. In the absence of that, and while there are plenty of people at low levels on Maslow's needs hierarchy[2] who need to work, then there is nothing wrong in wishing that the jobs they did provided some level of value beyond being a replaceable cog in a machine.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#28

This article isn't about zipper manufacturing. While the process of vibratory sorting is interesting, it's not the point Bunnie is making. The point as I see it is that price signalling is a frustratingly blunt instrument. It's annoying that so much of our species' output is channeled towards activities that improve precisely nobody's lives. This is an artifact of how hard it is to communicate throughout the entire s…

I'm amazed reading your post, because that's not what I see here at all.

In fact, this shows how precise the signaling is. In any other economic system, you'd get one type of zippers (or even a single type of car, or house) because "that's good be enough for everyone."

But in this system, price signaling is so precise that it even allows for distinguishing between preferences in zipper designs, all the way from the buyer to the manufacturer on the other side of the world, who adjusts accordingly.

It's annoying that so much of our species' output is channeled towards activities that improve precisely nobody's lives.

But that's like, your opinion, man. The fact is that the people are spending more on smooth zippers, because they care about it. Who's to say their lives haven't been improved?

What you're arguing is that the system should optimize for the opinions of experts (such as engineers) rather than the opinions of the laypeople who actually buy the products. That has nothing to do with "bluntness".

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#29
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why not just put the tab on the other end where the wearer won't grab and pull? Perhaps there's a size/perspective thing going on with the pictures, but the tab looked small enough to me that it wouldn't interfere with rotating the pull around the joining mechanism.

Re: A Tale of Two Zippers

#30

why not use the holes in the tab to align/hang them from along some rod or track? That seems totally doable

If it was "doable", it would have been done.

How exactly do you get all the tabs on the rod? Should the tab-forming machine put them on rods before transport to the press? Now you have to deal with rods full of tabs and keep the press fed, plus machine jams etc.

Look at how they're moving materials around the factory. A bin full of this, a bin full of that. Dump part A into hopper B.

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