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The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

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Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that would require a lot of energy !

Achieving nuclear fusion should provide us with the energy.

Yeah that was what I was about to say, fusion, solar, and other centralized energy tech (if we every readily deploy them) should allow us to trade more energy for more of the materials we need, and then as other commentators have said, the trash piles of the world start to look like just a bunch of raw materials.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#22

> Without it, we would not have smartphones, tablets or laptops, including the device you are reading at this very moment. Yes we would. All these things existed without Li-ion. The power/space budget would be more constrained but it was perfectly achievable. What wouldn't work is senselessly burning cycles running managed code in a VM with heaps of battery sucking DRAM. People today have no concept of how much compu…

> People today have no concept of how much computing power is wasted as excess heat because of modern software development practices.

Or of how many new ideas are created because generous power/space ratios give us the luxury to develop quickly using abstractions higher than highly-optimized references and pointers. You can take a hit on optimal energy efficiency if it results in a larger ecosystem with more possibilities.

The real challenge is to get both.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#23

> Without it, we would not have smartphones, tablets or laptops, including the device you are reading at this very moment. Yes we would. All these things existed without Li-ion. The power/space budget would be more constrained but it was perfectly achievable. What wouldn't work is senselessly burning cycles running managed code in a VM with heaps of battery sucking DRAM. People today have no concept of how much compu…

We have devices nowadays that put effort into battery economy high up their list of priorities. Kindles are an example. Their common features: they tend to be single-purpose devices, they tend to have crappy displays like e-ink or black-and-grey LCD, and to the extent they are general-purpose, they aren't effective or much fun.

So they would never have been tablets or laptops. They would have stayed as e-readers and PDAs and so forth.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#24

> Without it, we would not have smartphones, tablets or laptops, including the device you are reading at this very moment. Yes we would. All these things existed without Li-ion. The power/space budget would be more constrained but it was perfectly achievable. What wouldn't work is senselessly burning cycles running managed code in a VM with heaps of battery sucking DRAM. People today have no concept of how much compu…

Rubbish! The CPU isn't the power hog that you think it is in smartphones, nor are the programming techniques. Things like the screen and the radio consume most of the power.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#25

A note for those who go looking for the technical details: there aren't many here. According to the article, Dr. Goodenough is being tight-lipped about his work.

I expect a note in the margin of one of his journals, discovered posthumously, "What a simple and elegant anode, the margin is too small to contain it."

I get that he is angry, but I worry that his anger may rob us of what he could do.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#26

A note for those who go looking for the technical details: there aren't many here. According to the article, Dr. Goodenough is being tight-lipped about his work.

I expect a note in the margin of one of his journals, discovered posthumously, "What a simple and elegant anode, the margin is too small to contain it." I get that he is angry, but I worry that his anger may rob us of what he could do.

At the same time, he knows the power of copious notes proving the origination of the idea, so hopefully it won't be that bad.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#27
post #13

> But Goodenough is equally dismissive of such tinkering and its measly 7% or 8% a year in added efficiency. 7% extra efficiency per year means electric cars will have twice the capacity in 10 years...and then double up again in 10 more years...and so on. That's a far greater rate of improvement than for gasoline-powered cars, even if we're impatient and we want our $10,000 500 mile on a charge EVs now . > But the pa…

> 7% extra efficiency per year means electric cars will have twice the capacity in 10 years...and then double up again in 10 more years...and so on. An example of the dangers of extrapolating. CPU speeds kept going up - until they didn't. Battery tech is not going to keep going up 7% each year. Although perhaps his 60% improvement will show exactly at the right time to effectively be 7% better than the previous year.

We are actually not so far away from hitting the ceiling with batteries. There are fundamental physical reasons for why you can't put much more than 1eV per atom in a battery. That equates roughly to 850 Wh/kg, if memory serves, and we are currently pushing Li-ion towards 300 Wh/kg. So we can only keep growing at 5% for another couple of decades or so. Regardless of battery chemistry.

What people often do to hide this fact is talk about energy density, Wh/L, where growth can continue for longer, at the expense of making batteries heavier.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#28
post #9

What I'm worried about is the waste of lithium and other battery/accumulator metals. In theory, people should turn electronic devices and batteries to recycling facilities, but a large part of the population ignores the rules and throws their gadgets into the trash when broken... I wonder if someday we will find a way to "separate" trash on atomar level (i.e. put arbitrary stuff in on one side, get raw atoms on the o…

Todays landfills are tomorrows mines.

In some areas if I recall there are companies doing such. Landfill mining and reclamation (LFMR)

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 7% extra efficiency per year means electric cars will have twice the capacity in 10 years...and then double up again in 10 more years...and so on. An example of the dangers of extrapolating. CPU speeds kept going up - until they didn't. Battery tech is not going to keep going up 7% each year. Although perhaps his 60% improvement will show exactly at the right time to effectively be 7% better than the previous year.

CPU speeds stopped increasing because the market stopped focusing on CPU speed (coincidentally to this discussion, the change was largely to reduce power demands). Transistor count has kept plugging right along; http://i.imgur.com/FvVrnn4.png

I think it is misleading to say it was due to reduce power demands. Rather it was due to needing to cool the damned things. If you were to have a 500W TDP chip, you would either need a crazy huge cooling system or a much bigger surface area. Consumers want light and thin, so Bob's your uncle.

Re: The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery has an idea for a new one

#30
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 7% extra efficiency per year means electric cars will have twice the capacity in 10 years...and then double up again in 10 more years...and so on. An example of the dangers of extrapolating. CPU speeds kept going up - until they didn't. Battery tech is not going to keep going up 7% each year. Although perhaps his 60% improvement will show exactly at the right time to effectively be 7% better than the previous year.

CPU speeds stopped increasing because the market stopped focusing on CPU speed (coincidentally to this discussion, the change was largely to reduce power demands). Transistor count has kept plugging right along; http://i.imgur.com/FvVrnn4.png

I think it's the other way? That is, market stopped focusing on CPU speed because they hit the wall and clock speed could no longer be used as a differentiating factor.
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