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Robert Morris: All About Programming

paulgraham.com

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Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#21

Post by allendoerfer »

> My father tried to interest me in programming somewhat before high school; it didn't work, and I didn't continue then.

I suspect, that it almost never works that way. Learning programming or hacking as a child is all about figuring it out on your own, doing something, what your parents or your teachers can not understand, defining your own identity.

That is why I doubt that all the programs in the US, which try to teach children programming, will work. They might teach some concepts, but in the end i fear, that they will hinder the children to aspire a career in the field. I see a bad parallel to beauty contests, were parents try to live their dreams through their children.

Of course it is never black and white, but I think you have to be ultra careful with stuff like this. I think naturally interesting, open platforms are a better way to get children to dig deeper. Minecraft is a perfect example.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#22

Post by [deleted] »

allendoerfer wrote: post #21

> My father tried to interest me in programming somewhat before high school; it didn't work, and I didn't continue then. I suspect, that it almost never works that way. Learning programming or hacking as a child is all about figuring it out on your own, doing something, what your parents or your teachers can not understand, defining your own identity. That is why I doubt that all the programs in the US, which try to…

[deleted]

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#23

Post by [deleted] »

bcd21 wrote: post #4

"Not wanting to look like a loser to the people I most admired, I was pretty late in admitting the obvious about math." Don't understand this part, what's the obvious thing about math he was late in admitting? Were the Bell labs people right in his opinion or not?

[deleted]

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#24

Post by [deleted] »

jarcane wrote: post #10

I stayed away from pursuing programming as a vocation for almost 15 years. I intuitively knew as a child that there were parts of programming and using computers which "weren't work" for me, but also very much ones that were, and I foresaw the probability that I might cease to enjoy the "not work" parts after being ground down by too much work. As I come back to it now, I still think that. Increasingly I think it rea…

[deleted]

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#25

Post by bojo »

pakled_engineer wrote: post #18
jarcane wrote: post #10

I stayed away from pursuing programming as a vocation for almost 15 years. I intuitively knew as a child that there were parts of programming and using computers which "weren't work" for me, but also very much ones that were, and I foresaw the probability that I might cease to enjoy the "not work" parts after being ground down by too much work. As I come back to it now, I still think that. Increasingly I think it rea…

I took a major pay cut so I wouldn't have to work with certain popular commercial languages ever again, and now enjoy working in a small studio where we create DSLs in Scheme. Every week I discover something new about Lisp and then use it on independent hobby projects, whereas before I didn't even want to look at a computer after work.

If you don't mind offering up the information, where do you work? Or at the very least, what field do you work in? That sounds extremely fun.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#26

Post by electronvolt »

HillRat wrote: post #12
jnks wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reading: Bell Labs folks would have ordered it Programming > Math >> Computer Science. RTM was good at programming, was being taught CS at college, and took too long to learn that neither that nor math were for him and that Bell Labs had it right all along.

If I understand you correctly, I think you have it backwards -- as I read it, Bell Labs saw math as having "lasting value," while computer science was just a practical application. Morris didn't want to look foolish, so he persisted with math long after he realized that he really wanted to be a programmer; unfortunately, after he gave up on mathematics as a vocation, he didn't have the fortitude to keep in touch with…

I'm fairly certain it's this, given the history of CS and programming. It started as a branch of mathematics. As an academic field, even in the 1980s/1990s and in some places today, it was/is taught as a branch of math. And comparatively, programming/operating computers was not high prestige and was seen more as grunt work.

Interestingly, in some ways the people in Bell Labs were right: the mathematics is what objectively /lasts/. Consider: how much mathematics from the 1950s is still in use and relevant, versus how much written code is still in use and relevant? Mathematics (and algorithms, etc.) have a permanency to them that simply written programs don't.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#27

Post by pakled_engineer »

bojo wrote: post #25
pakled_engineer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a major pay cut so I wouldn't have to work with certain popular commercial languages ever again, and now enjoy working in a small studio where we create DSLs in Scheme. Every week I discover something new about Lisp and then use it on independent hobby projects, whereas before I didn't even want to look at a computer after work.

If you don't mind offering up the information, where do you work? Or at the very least, what field do you work in? That sounds extremely fun.

Small stealth mode startup in Vancouver, Canada that does custom DSLs for the oil & gas industry. I found the job on my local CL, they were advertising looking for anybody who had read SICP, or had experience doing functional programming. It doesn't pay a lot but enough to live comfortably while single plus I get to hack around in Scheme all day, though now they want me to learn Haskell too.

I work 6hrs a day usually and spend the rest of time experimenting with my own DSLs for future side projects or enjoying life whereas before I'd go to work before the sun came up, work in a windowless office under constant unachievable deadlines then leave at night. I had money but no life.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#28

Post by FeeTinesAMady »

pakled_engineer wrote: post #27
bojo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind offering up the information, where do you work? Or at the very least, what field do you work in? That sounds extremely fun.

Small stealth mode startup in Vancouver, Canada that does custom DSLs for the oil & gas industry. I found the job on my local CL, they were advertising looking for anybody who had read SICP, or had experience doing functional programming. It doesn't pay a lot but enough to live comfortably while single plus I get to hack around in Scheme all day, though now they want me to learn Haskell too. I work 6hrs a day usually…

Do you get equity, as partial compensation for the lowish pay?

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#29

Post by wwweston »

endgame wrote: post #19
esonderegger wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just finished reading The Cuckoo's Egg by Cliff Stoll this morning (And I highly recommend it!). In the Epilogue, Stoll writes about the Morris worm and briefly mentions: (Harvard student Paul Graham sent him mail asking for "Any news on the brilliant project") When I read that, I wondered if that was THE Paul Graham.

Seconding this recommendation. I found a copy, used, at random for 50c. FIFTY CENTS. Easily the greatest enjoyment/price ratio of anything I own. Have you read his later book, /Silicon Snake Oil/? It's interesting how wrong he ended up being about a lot of things.

Dead wrong about e-commerce and eBooks and good number of other things to boot.

On the other hand: "The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works.""

He's partially wrong -- we have online newspapers, online education resources that are better than nothing, and some political action via web-shared activity.

But in spirit, anybody who's been paying attention to journalism is worried about whether we even care to subsidize a healthy fifth estate anymore (or just want more listicles and cable news), even Khan Academy isn't a substitute for a competent teacher, and politics is still driven by the overriding incentives and foibles of human nature.

Some of our new tools/resources are making a bigger difference than others; some are just cosmetic changes.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#30

Post by michael_nielsen »

wwweston wrote: post #29
endgame wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconding this recommendation. I found a copy, used, at random for 50c. FIFTY CENTS. Easily the greatest enjoyment/price ratio of anything I own. Have you read his later book, /Silicon Snake Oil/? It's interesting how wrong he ended up being about a lot of things.

Dead wrong about e-commerce and eBooks and good number of other things to boot. On the other hand: "The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works."" He's partially wrong -- we have online newspapers, online education resources that are better than nothing, and some political action via…

Stoll has written a lovely 2010 mea culpa:

http://boingboing.net/2010/02/26/curmudgeony-essay-on.html#c...

Quoting:

"Of my many mistakes, flubs, and howlers, few have been as public as my 1995 howler.

Wrong? Yep.

At the time, I was trying to speak against the tide of futuristic commentary on how The Internet Will Solve Our Problems.

Gives me pause. Most of my screwups have had limited publicity: Forgetting my lines in my 4th grade play. Misidentifying a Gilbert and Sullivan song while suddenly drafted to fill in as announcer on a classical radio station. Wasting a week hunting for planets interior to Mercury’s orbit using an infrared system with a noise level so high that it couldn’t possibly detect ‘em. Heck – trying to dry my sneakers in a microwave oven (a quarter century later, there’s still a smudge on the kitchen ceiling)

And, as I’ve laughed at others’ foibles, I think back to some of my own cringeworthy contributions.

Now, whenever I think I know what’s happening, I temper my thoughts: Might be wrong, Cliff…

Warm cheers to all,

-Cliff Stoll on a rainy Friday afternoon in Oakland"

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