Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001) • Hacker News Board

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#21

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #11

Kliment wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of a few reasons: First, this was a decade and a half ago. SHA was slow, open source SHA implementations were rare at the time, crypto had a stigma due to export restrictions, and was generally problematic to work with due to limited hardware support and speed. Second, several different implementations were needed and they needed to be different enough that a simple pattern search would not find them all.…

I deleted it before I saw there were responses, because I mistakenly assumed this article was relatively recent (I mean, retro look is a thing in video games, right?). I had no idea it was from 2001 until the "(2001)" was added after it was first posted (I'm not a gamer at all). Sorry for the confusion, about 5 people responded at the same time right as I was deleting it (didn't know the comments were incoming). 2001…

The key thing is that the choice of crypto algorithm makes no difference because that's not the route of the crack. The cracked version would remove the SHA check entirely.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#22

Post by api » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 4:57 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #10

I've often heard people say that piracy isn't harmful, but looking at what it does to video game developers, I'm not sure it always isn't. Day 1 cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people would buy a cheap "R4" or…

I agree. I posted this a while back around here talking about music piracy.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8743310

In short: what's rebellious when you're a young kid operating at the margins becomes tyrannical and oppressive when performed at massive scale by an elite upper class (hackers today). Piracy is no longer a "countercultural" act. It's more akin to labor union busting -- helping beggar content creators so content distribution mills can "monetize" their stuff for free.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#23

Post by _nullandnull_ » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

gpcz wrote: post #18

The biggest takeaway of this article is that effective security comes from proper threat modeling and analyzing the cost dynamics. Most media companies in that era attempted to build an "uncrackable" system which always got cracked in short order because the mechanism depended on one tactic. By acknowledging that all protection schemes eventually get figured out and acknowledging the adversary's strengths and weaknes…

> the author could then employ defense-in-depth techniques to maximize the cost of cracking the system.

Can you provide more details on this statement? I understand defense-in-depth and the different methodologies for cracking software but your statement doesn't make sense when applied as a whole. Do you have any examples?

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#24

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #13

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #10

I've often heard people say that piracy isn't harmful, but looking at what it does to video game developers, I'm not sure it always isn't. Day 1 cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people would buy a cheap "R4" or…

> cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. If your crazy uncle wears tinfoil hats to combat CIA mind-rays, this doesn't mean CIA mind control technology is a concern. It just means your uncle is mentally ill. > And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people w…

> If your crazy uncle wears tinfoil hats to combat CIA mind-rays, this doesn't mean CIA mind control technology is a concern.

Why do you assume they have no evidence?

> This is no proof that sales were hurt. It could be true (and almost certainly is) that people who did this would not have bought extra games even if the flash carts had been unavailable.

What makes you think kids with flashcarts wouldn't buy games? Their parents buy them a DS and a game or two for Christmas/Birthday. Their parents would probably buy them future games, too. Or the kid has pocket money. But the kid has a flashcart now, they need not buy more games.

This isn't like computer software piracy. They already had to spend money on a DS and flashcart, assuming they wouldn't buy additional games is nonsensical. Who buys a DS and doesn't play games on it?

It is anecdotal, but the people I know who bought DS flashcarts definitely would have bought games. And, although it is just my reasoning, I think it's fair to say people who owned the Nintendo DS would have bought games for it.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#25

Post by CJefferson » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #17

phpnode wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being logical, you're just parroting anti-anti-copying propaganda. > If the 12 yr old pirates $17,000 (retail price) of music, this does not mean the record companies are out $17,000... 12 yr olds don't have $17,000 to spend even if they are prevented from pirating. Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. They are probably missing out on at least several hundred dollars wor…

> Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. I might concede that this is the case, but only if we first agree that this doesn't mean you get to choose some arbitrary number in the middle and pretend that this is the "average loss". I know of no economic science that can provide a reasonable number, either. You'd be lying if you claimed you knew of one. > They are probably missing out on…

As you say, it's very hard to know how much companies are out.

I would guess it was at least $40, else why pay $40 for a flashcart? A new gateway (the only 3DS card I'm aware of) costs $80.

People who buy 3DS flash carts never buy a game again (in my experience), mainly because new non-pirated games require upgrading the firmware, which they can't do if they want their flash carts to keep working (this may have been improved, I haven't looked in a while). Also because they 'paid for piracy' (unlike on PC), they (I believe) feel happier not paying for games in future.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#26

Post by gambiting » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #17

phpnode wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being logical, you're just parroting anti-anti-copying propaganda. > If the 12 yr old pirates $17,000 (retail price) of music, this does not mean the record companies are out $17,000... 12 yr olds don't have $17,000 to spend even if they are prevented from pirating. Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. They are probably missing out on at least several hundred dollars wor…

> Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. I might concede that this is the case, but only if we first agree that this doesn't mean you get to choose some arbitrary number in the middle and pretend that this is the "average loss". I know of no economic science that can provide a reasonable number, either. You'd be lying if you claimed you knew of one. > They are probably missing out on…

As someone who actually works in the game industry - I feel like making an emotional argument. If I write a game, it's released in stores, and then I see someone playing a pirated copy, how should I feel? Elated that they are playing it? Or am I allowed to be upset that they are playing my game without paying for it?

And how is being unable to run games designed for a different system and different time stealing from public domain? Just because tape players are not common today doesn't mean that people who made tapes 20 years ago have somehow stolen from a public domain - you just have to get a tape player. If a game was written for Dos, then well, you have to get a dos system or an emulator. If a game was written for DirectX 7, how can you blame developers that it doesn't run on the latest DirectX 11 system, with the operating system 5 generations ahead? If you are a software developer - how could you predict and counteract this?

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#27

Post by tacos » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:30 PM UTC

gpcz wrote: post #18

The biggest takeaway of this article is that effective security comes from proper threat modeling and analyzing the cost dynamics. Most media companies in that era attempted to build an "uncrackable" system which always got cracked in short order because the mechanism depended on one tactic. By acknowledging that all protection schemes eventually get figured out and acknowledging the adversary's strengths and weaknes…

Also the reminder that a deterrent doesn't have to be perfect to be effective. Yes, you can easily find a crack for anything. That doesn't mean that the protection didn't serve it's purpose and generate a significant ROI. In the game industry even one day of delay before you hit the warez sites can be worth millions of dollars. With copy protection (including support) costing a tiny fraction of that, it's hard to ignore the option.

And to cut off the "developers spend their time on that crap instead of making the game better" comment before it arrives: frankly, it's a fun and welcomed diversion to code the anti-theft stuff. For every story like this that you read there are hundreds you don't. And the "penalties" imposed by the devs are almost always funny and creative.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#28

Post by zak_mc_kracken » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:34 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #10

I've often heard people say that piracy isn't harmful, but looking at what it does to video game developers, I'm not sure it always isn't. Day 1 cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people would buy a cheap "R4" or…

It's a bit puzzling to hear this coming from Nintendo since it's pretty clear that piracy hurts the Windows platform infinitely more than the console industry.

Very, very few console owners run unlocked consoles, so they don't even have the option of running cracked games.

On the other hand, every PC owner can run cracked copies, and it only takes a few minutes of reading for even the most non tech savvy Windows user to find out about bittorrent and how to procure cracked games.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#29

Post by ddingus » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:38 PM UTC

phpnode wrote: post #16

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. If your crazy uncle wears tinfoil hats to combat CIA mind-rays, this doesn't mean CIA mind control technology is a concern. It just means your uncle is mentally ill. > And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people w…

You're not being logical, you're just parroting anti-anti-copying propaganda. > If the 12 yr old pirates $17,000 (retail price) of music, this does not mean the record companies are out $17,000... 12 yr olds don't have $17,000 to spend even if they are prevented from pirating. Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. They are probably missing out on at least several hundred dollars wor…

Actually, it's more subtle than that.

For the vast majority of ordinary people, entertainment dollars are fixed. People have what they have to spend on entertainment, and when it's gone that month, it's gone.

What happens is the various content producers compete for their share of those dollars.

There just aren't billions out there for entertainment purposes. Wages being flat in the US speaks right to that. People don't have it.

In a perfect no piracy world, people would just consume much less, not spend billions more. Again, because they just don't have it. The money doesn't exist.

So that person pirating a lot of music might spend real dollars on video games instead, much more than they would just spend more on the music.

Re: Keeping the Pirates at Bay – Copy and Crack Protection (2001)

#30

Post by sosborn » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #28

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #10

I've often heard people say that piracy isn't harmful, but looking at what it does to video game developers, I'm not sure it always isn't. Day 1 cracks are obviously a serious concern if developers like this one would go to so much effort to prevent them. And I remember Nintendo saying piracy had hurt DS software sales in Europe (understandably: instead of buying several full titles, people would buy a cheap "R4" or…

It's a bit puzzling to hear this coming from Nintendo since it's pretty clear that piracy hurts the Windows platform infinitely more than the console industry. Very, very few console owners run unlocked consoles, so they don't even have the option of running cracked games. On the other hand, every PC owner can run cracked copies, and it only takes a few minutes of reading for even the most non tech savvy Windows user…

> It's a bit puzzling to hear this coming from Nintendo

Those R4 carts were all over the place. I was living in Japan at the time and everyone and their mother had one. There is no doubt it cost them a lot of money.