Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes • Hacker News Board

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#21

Post by bch » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

kolev wrote: post #14

cing wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These results indicate that you can eat anything, not just foods enriched with bacteria like probiotic yogurt (which has questionable benefits in itself http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6180/do-probioti... ), and observe a change in gut microbiota. "Turnbaugh’s team found that switching mice to a high-sugar, high-fat diet reshaped the abundance of the community of microbes in the gut to a new, stable makeu…

The real yogurt is the Bulgarian yogurt, not low-fat high-sugar ones sold at store in the States. Only an idiot will eat a probiotic "yogurt" with 30g of sugars in the small container and think they are doing good to their health! Fortunately, there are two brands [0] of the original sold at Whole Foods today (one, unfortunately, available only on the East Coast [1]), but they are too sour for the American to like. D…

If one is sufficiently motivated (and can utilize all the product), it's not hard to make ones own yogurt, with starter.

For that case, you could find your favourite local milk and make yogurt who's ingredients you are certain of, because you put them in.

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Yogurt

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#22

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 5:48 PM UTC

jobu wrote: post #5

Study seems to follow common-sense - change the nutrients ingested and different gut bacteria will flourish. What I'm really interested in is which types of bacteria create a feedback loop by releasing chemicals/hormones to increase hunger or cravings for specific foods. Definitely not an easy thing to determine given all the variables, but it seems very likely based on the other studies showing bacteria can promote…

[deleted]

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#23

Post by beltranrm » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

mercurialshark wrote: post #18

Can someone speak to my theory (that's based on limited knowledge), that if we wanted to "reset" the gut, we could deliberately take antibiotics to wipe out good/bad colonies of microbes and tailor a hyper-specific diet for sought after results. The hypothesis being that if certain microbes flourish for years and that if it is impractical to genetically map the gut biome to identify which are thriving in every patien…

IMHO, that seems like a bad idea. Two thoughts (these are only very overly generalized opinions, biology is a little bit complicated):

1) You might not get them all, and the ones that survive might transfer the traits of antibiotic survival and pathogenic-ability (if present) to the new population.

2) You would need to ensure that your hyper-specific diet contains the right mixture of microbes, say, you would need to avoid irradiated food, and a bunch of other things. "Bad microbes" coming into an empty gut seems to me like a bad thing.

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#24

Post by acomjean » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 5:58 PM UTC

mercurialshark wrote: post #18

Can someone speak to my theory (that's based on limited knowledge), that if we wanted to "reset" the gut, we could deliberately take antibiotics to wipe out good/bad colonies of microbes and tailor a hyper-specific diet for sought after results. The hypothesis being that if certain microbes flourish for years and that if it is impractical to genetically map the gut biome to identify which are thriving in every patien…

Antibiotics don't wipe out all the bacteria, just some of them. Its a bit of a problem because if some are effected less by the antibiotic, you can change the balance when the bacteria populations bounce back. The bacteria that are there do set up shop and don't like others crowding in.

We don't really enough enough about what should be the optimal mix of bacteria to make someone healthy.

They do "fecal" transplants to help people get back bacteria that are missing.

There was a graduate student talk (an hour) about some of this stuff last spring. slide decked linked to the right.

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/seminars/2014/in-the-loop-with-p...

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#25

Post by aroch » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:01 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #8

aroch wrote: post #6

Eh, as a researcher at the periphery of the Human Microbiome Project and American Gut project this has been the accepted (and already shown, experimentally) conclusion for quite some time.

This study examined two new things: 1. The speed at which the microbiome can change ( 2. The permanence of such changes (some of them are more permanent than others)

Those aren't particularly new things to study. We have tons of murine data on the subject and quite a few PhD students over the last 4-6 years have done their PhDs on microbiota and diet with themselves as the guinea pig, so to speak (2-4 year longitudinals).

There are a couple mouse papers out that don't directly address the issue in 2, but that permanence (or lack thereof) played prominent roles in their findings.

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#26

Post by mercurialshark » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

beltranrm wrote: post #23

mercurialshark wrote: post #18

Can someone speak to my theory (that's based on limited knowledge), that if we wanted to "reset" the gut, we could deliberately take antibiotics to wipe out good/bad colonies of microbes and tailor a hyper-specific diet for sought after results. The hypothesis being that if certain microbes flourish for years and that if it is impractical to genetically map the gut biome to identify which are thriving in every patien…

IMHO, that seems like a bad idea. Two thoughts (these are only very overly generalized opinions, biology is a little bit complicated): 1) You might not get them all, and the ones that survive might transfer the traits of antibiotic survival and pathogenic-ability (if present) to the new population. 2) You would need to ensure that your hyper-specific diet contains the right mixture of microbes, say, you would need to…

Thanks, both are good points! I assumed there were downsides to if you weren't able to wipe out the robust bad microbes but that's even worse than I had expected. Perhaps I'll wait on self-experimentation. The possibility of nefarious and now genetically enhanced microbes reigning supreme in my body is not cool.

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#27

Post by aroch » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:05 PM UTC

mercurialshark wrote: post #18

Can someone speak to my theory (that's based on limited knowledge), that if we wanted to "reset" the gut, we could deliberately take antibiotics to wipe out good/bad colonies of microbes and tailor a hyper-specific diet for sought after results. The hypothesis being that if certain microbes flourish for years and that if it is impractical to genetically map the gut biome to identify which are thriving in every patien…

As mentioned by acomjean, fecal transplant (FMT) is the typically how we restore "healthy" biota in the gut. Interestingly, only a handful of species play a large role in the regulation of gut microbiota and physiology/psychology of the host. Recolonizing the gut with these species alone is enough to restore a "healthier" mix.

[1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2013.11.024

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#28

Post by mercurialshark » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:07 PM UTC

acomjean wrote: post #24

mercurialshark wrote: post #18

Can someone speak to my theory (that's based on limited knowledge), that if we wanted to "reset" the gut, we could deliberately take antibiotics to wipe out good/bad colonies of microbes and tailor a hyper-specific diet for sought after results. The hypothesis being that if certain microbes flourish for years and that if it is impractical to genetically map the gut biome to identify which are thriving in every patien…

Antibiotics don't wipe out all the bacteria, just some of them. Its a bit of a problem because if some are effected less by the antibiotic, you can change the balance when the bacteria populations bounce back. The bacteria that are there do set up shop and don't like others crowding in. We don't really enough enough about what should be the optimal mix of bacteria to make someone healthy. They do "fecal" transplants…

I've read a bit about fecal transplants and they apparently have good results. I just wanted to oversimplify and remove as many variables as possible before introducing new ones. No longer liking the idea...

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#29

Post by zach » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:14 PM UTC

We're slowly coming to understand that antibiotics are very unkind to our gut flora and are a prime suspect in subsequent weight gain. Post-antibiotic diet could be a critical intervention to keep patients from falling into the grasp of obesity.

A NY Times article earlier this year gives a background on how the rise of antibiotics has been accompanied by a rise in weight among animals and humans alike:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/the-fat-dru...

Kids in particular seem to be at risk. A recent study of 64,000 kids has associated repeated antibiotic exposure before age 2 with early childhood obesity:

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=19098...

It's good we're investigating diet-based therapy, so patients can someday hear their doctors say "after finishing this broad-spectrum antibiotic prescription, you [or your child] should eat like this for this amount of time to restore digestive health."

Re: Mix of Bacteria in Gut May Depend More on Diet Than Genes

#30

Post by kaitai » Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 6:20 PM UTC

This complements other research that has been done on gut bacteria across cultures -- in different places we humans eat different prevailing diets:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/05/0...

http://www.wired.com/2014/04/hadza-hunter-gatherer-gut-micro...

The second link is particularly interesting, as the Hadza hunter-gatherers have a lot of gut bacteria that cause disease in the west. So it seems that gut bacteria aren't the whole story. Something to complicate the story for people who want to cure mental illness or create skinny people via manipulating gut bacteria.