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JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

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Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#21

Post by eb »

bhousel wrote: post #12
ErrantX wrote: post #4

I agree; what he wants is a stellar idea and how it should work for definite. The problem is twofold. Firstly Apple. They achieved unbelievable lockin (even accounting for jailbreaking) with the App Store and are certainly raking in a fortune with it. Im not surprised Palm want a portion of the pie. Secondly; I bet you the Pre is "sold" at a loss. Because Palm looked at the App Store and thought "hey that is a limitl…

What he wants is basically what Palm is giving him, except for one point.. The device won't install apps directly off the developer's website - it will only install apps either through the actual app catalog, or through a free link that somehow goes through Palm. However they said that they would provide these links for any app, even without any formal review process. Really, this is a good thing. Why? Because Palm n…

That's ridiculous.

Why should I let Palm decide what I can install on my phone? Android, Windows Mobile and PalmOS users have been doing fine with having the option of installing their own software.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#22

Post by bhousel »

icefox wrote: post #19
bhousel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he wants is basically what Palm is giving him, except for one point.. The device won't install apps directly off the developer's website - it will only install apps either through the actual app catalog, or through a free link that somehow goes through Palm. However they said that they would provide these links for any app, even without any formal review process. Really, this is a good thing. Why? Because Palm n…

I don't see any reason why palm couldn't still disable evil apps no matter where they came from.

What if the evil app removes their capability to do so?

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#23

Post by bhousel »

eb wrote: post #18
jmtulloss wrote: post #9

I think JWZ has some of the details wrong. The Palm app catalog may resemble the Apple app store. This is not a bad thing. This is a repository of apps that are easy to find and install from the device itself, and it carries a certain seal of approval from Palm/Apple. There should be quality requirements for this distribution channel. However, there is no "2nd citizen" app store. What Palm is doing is providing a lin…

Will it be possible for me to host the app so users can download directly from my server?

I doubt you'll ever see this, for security reasons.

I'm just imagining a scenario where I install your app, and it decides to SMS all of my contacts with a bit.ly link to spread itself, send out emails and do whatever else it wants to.

At least linking through Palm, they know who you are as the app author and can shut down the app if necessary and go after you if your app turns malicious.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#24

Post by latortuga »

bhousel wrote: post #23
eb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will it be possible for me to host the app so users can download directly from my server?

I doubt you'll ever see this, for security reasons. I'm just imagining a scenario where I install your app, and it decides to SMS all of my contacts with a bit.ly link to spread itself, send out emails and do whatever else it wants to. At least linking through Palm, they know who you are as the app author and can shut down the app if necessary and go after you if your app turns malicious.

But this is exactly his point, this kind of gatekeeping is ridiculous. If it hasn't been necessary for PalmOS previous and it's damn clear that desktop operating systems don't work this why, why do phones have to? There's much more sensitive information on my desktop computer and much more potential for damage yet when it comes to my phone I have to be treated with kid gloves?

I think the much better argument to make in Palm's favor is that 30% is a lot of money, not that it's a good idea to keep users "safe."

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#25

Post by bhousel »

eb wrote: post #21
bhousel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he wants is basically what Palm is giving him, except for one point.. The device won't install apps directly off the developer's website - it will only install apps either through the actual app catalog, or through a free link that somehow goes through Palm. However they said that they would provide these links for any app, even without any formal review process. Really, this is a good thing. Why? Because Palm n…

That's ridiculous. Why should I let Palm decide what I can install on my phone? Android, Windows Mobile and PalmOS users have been doing fine with having the option of installing their own software.

You still can install whatever you want on the phone. You just need to jump through a few (very minor) hoops to enable developer mode.

The Palm Pre has a thriving homebrew community of hackers who have done exactly this, and have written over 250 apps that don't go through the standard Palm app store and can be installed just by a normal download link.

See: http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps

Palm devs have even been following the homebrew community closely and invited many of the developers there to offer their apps through the official app store as well as through the homebrew scene.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#26

Post by latortuga »

bhousel wrote: post #12
ErrantX wrote: post #4

I agree; what he wants is a stellar idea and how it should work for definite. The problem is twofold. Firstly Apple. They achieved unbelievable lockin (even accounting for jailbreaking) with the App Store and are certainly raking in a fortune with it. Im not surprised Palm want a portion of the pie. Secondly; I bet you the Pre is "sold" at a loss. Because Palm looked at the App Store and thought "hey that is a limitl…

What he wants is basically what Palm is giving him, except for one point.. The device won't install apps directly off the developer's website - it will only install apps either through the actual app catalog, or through a free link that somehow goes through Palm. However they said that they would provide these links for any app, even without any formal review process. Really, this is a good thing. Why? Because Palm n…

In this same world where Apple and Palm babysit phone owners does Dell get to dictate what software I install on my netbook and get to ban certain pieces of software because they're not approved by them? I understand the idea of vendor lock in and I don't think it's in Palm's worst interests to try to profit from their App Catalog but trying to justify it based on safety just sounds absurd.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#27

Post by bhousel »

latortuga wrote: post #24
bhousel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you'll ever see this, for security reasons. I'm just imagining a scenario where I install your app, and it decides to SMS all of my contacts with a bit.ly link to spread itself, send out emails and do whatever else it wants to. At least linking through Palm, they know who you are as the app author and can shut down the app if necessary and go after you if your app turns malicious.

But this is exactly his point, this kind of gatekeeping is ridiculous. If it hasn't been necessary for PalmOS previous and it's damn clear that desktop operating systems don't work this why, why do phones have to? There's much more sensitive information on my desktop computer and much more potential for damage yet when it comes to my phone I have to be treated with kid gloves? I think the much better argument to make…

1. You can install whatever you want on your own phone if you first enable developer mode. It's very easy to do.. See the homebrew app scene here: http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps

2. Palm hasn't tried to shut down the homebrew scene at all. Actually they have been reaching out to developers of those apps and offering to let them host their apps in the official app store too.

3. Most people are not going to go through the trouble of hacking their phone just to install homebrew apps. They expect their phone to act like a phone, and they don't want to have to buy a virus scanner just to protect their phone from threats. For those users, I think the kid gloves are reasonable.

4. I believe Apple takes a 30% cut from iPhone app sales too.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#28

Post by jsz0 »

Has this gentleman addressed why he's developing for the Pre in the first place? It seems like Android would be a much better fit for him. There are more Android handsets out there, multiple models with many more on the way, and the OS has a very clear future ahead of it. It feels like some self imposed torture on his part. Both Palm and Apple make their terms pretty clear -- there's no bait & switch here from what I can tell.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#29

Post by mattmaroon »

latortuga wrote: post #24
bhousel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you'll ever see this, for security reasons. I'm just imagining a scenario where I install your app, and it decides to SMS all of my contacts with a bit.ly link to spread itself, send out emails and do whatever else it wants to. At least linking through Palm, they know who you are as the app author and can shut down the app if necessary and go after you if your app turns malicious.

But this is exactly his point, this kind of gatekeeping is ridiculous. If it hasn't been necessary for PalmOS previous and it's damn clear that desktop operating systems don't work this why, why do phones have to? There's much more sensitive information on my desktop computer and much more potential for damage yet when it comes to my phone I have to be treated with kid gloves? I think the much better argument to make…

And who gets blamed every time some dumbass downloads an attachment named britney_spears_naked_pic.exe and runs it? Windows, for being un-secure and virus prone. Palm's trying to avoid that fate, just like Apple is. I can't say I blame either of them. They're simply learning from history.

The only difference is they're letting those of us who know what we're doing install whatever we want via the homebrew route.

If jwz really wanted people to have his tip calculator (because the other 8 that are already there aren't good enough I suppose) he could simply post it at one of the many places that are referenced by WebOs Quickinstall or Filecoaster or Preware and people like myself who can't even spell SSH let alone use it can install the app.

Re: JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II

#30

Post by jmtulloss »

tptacek wrote: post #20
jmtulloss wrote: post #9

I think JWZ has some of the details wrong. The Palm app catalog may resemble the Apple app store. This is not a bad thing. This is a repository of apps that are easy to find and install from the device itself, and it carries a certain seal of approval from Palm/Apple. There should be quality requirements for this distribution channel. However, there is no "2nd citizen" app store. What Palm is doing is providing a lin…

This point was made on his LJ, and he responded: That's just semantics. Palm is still in control of it. It is their catalog, and the app is surely hosted on their servers. So maybe the user-facing interface for getting at apps is a web page instead of a "store" application that runs on the device. That's just an implementation detail. Palm is still mediating my interaction with my customers.

I love the "that's just semantics" argument. Semantics have connotations, and his were far from the truth. The "just an implementation detail" is another favorite. The differences between good programs and bad programs that do the same thing are, largely, implementation details.

It's great that people want to discuss the upsides and downsides of this approach, but the dismissive language and outright anger in the original post makes JWZ's argument weaker.

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