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Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#21

Post by smtddr »

vj44 wrote: post #16
the_real_bto wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oftentimes, foreign citizens working in the US are not able to freely participate in the job market. If they can't freely move from job to job (as US workers can), then they will be paid less money. If they want to be in the US badly enough, this will still be their best option. Everyone wins except the local worker who is now competing with an indentured servant. [0] Indentured Servant is probably an exaggeration: b…

Most visas (in particular, the OPT in question and the H1B) allow very easy work-permit transfer to other employers. So the wage decrease won't apply here.

>>Most visas (in particular, the OPT in question and the H1B) allow very easy work-permit transfer to other employers.

I don't know about the OPT thing, but H1B situations vary[1]. If Obama and his advisers can change the law such that no tech person can be entrapped by the H1B visa shenanigans described in the article I linked, I see no problem here.

1. "Even immigration experts have trouble sorting out how the brokers manage to game the system. From 2000 through 2013, at least $29.7m was illegally withheld from about 4,400 tech workers here on H-1B visas, US Department of Labor documents show." --- http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/-sp-jobs-brok...

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#22

Post by film42 »

frozenport wrote: post #9
cryoshon wrote: post #6

If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!" as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to the expansion of OPT. There is no S…

The alternative is an innovation shortage which will destroy your lively hoods in the long term. We are in many ways loosing this battle in manufacturing, I do not want it to happen to software.

We talked about this in one of my university classes recently. There's a difference between engineering a solution, and coding a spec. If you only need someone to implement your spec, then why not save money and outsource? Turns out, this has been happening a lot recently. In 2013 36% of CFOs (globally) said, "their firm was currently offshore outsourcing" [1]. I think we're losing that battle because nobody wants those jobs. So, I don't think there will necessarily be an innovation shortage, but there might be a hired hand shortage. I think the point being made though, was that shortages aren't bad if you're part of that limited supply.

[1] http://www.statisticbrain.com/outsourcing-statistics-by-coun...

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#23

Post by cryoshon »

phkahler wrote: post #8

Because US students under piles of debt need more job competition. Not.

You're right, but I doubt this is even part of the decision making process.

It's unfortunate, but it looks as though the US government is eagerly trashing the future of the citizenry for the sake of the wills of their political donors.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#24

Post by NhanH »

the_real_bto wrote: post #10
LLWM wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.

Oftentimes, foreign citizens working in the US are not able to freely participate in the job market. If they can't freely move from job to job (as US workers can), then they will be paid less money. If they want to be in the US badly enough, this will still be their best option. Everyone wins except the local worker who is now competing with an indentured servant. [0] Indentured Servant is probably an exaggeration: b…

The OPT is pretty much a green card in term of mobility. Except the fact that it expires, there're not other limitation to it: you can self employed (freelancing), do a startup, take any job you want.

Well, there are 2 limits: you have to work in your field of study (we won't be taking over your precious Art History, or English job :-)). And you have to be working full time.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#25

Post by wutbrodo »

thetrumanshow wrote: post #11
LLWM wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.

("It's a bit sad..." seems passive-aggressive to me, but I give you the benefit of the doubt here) No one wants their advantages whittled away, regardless of whether it helps other people or not. This is simple self-preservation. It is a type of selfishness, yes, but I personally don't consider it a dishonorable type of selfishness.

> I personally don't consider it a dishonorable type of selfishness.

I think the idea is that there are some advantages that aren't considered good for society. For some historical examples: "regardless of your potential or the quality of your work, you were born to a nobleman/peasant so you'll be a nobleman/peasant". For a more modern example: "regardless of your potential or the quality of your work, you were born in country X so we will erect barriers to prevent you from reaching your productivity potential".

By contrast, "you have an advantage because you are much more productive at this task than that guy[0]" is an advantage that's decidedly not arbitrary, since choosing you means less wasted potential and more wealth for society at large. This is the kind of advantage that can't really be removed without ending up in some sort of Harrison Bergeron type situation, where you pull high-achievers down instead of removing unnecessary impediments to low-achievers (thus increasing total achievement).

The distinction between these two types of advantages should be obvious: fostering the "unfair" advantages benefits nobody but the people being arbitrarily protected, and allowing the "fair" ones is good for pretty much everyone.

> This is simple self-preservation.

We're not monkeys. Presumably we should have the ability to understand whether an advantage is just or not. To use a dramatic example: by your stated logic, it's not "dishonorable" to fight for segregation or for limiting opportunity based on race (if one is in the favored race). Do you really believe that, or is there some unexpressed nuance in your view that would somehow exclude the race-based example but not the country-of-birth example?

[0]Yes, I realize that this is dependent on similarly arbitrary factors like who you were born to (and thus what your education was like), but that's an upstream problem.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#26

Post by aikah »

LLWM wrote: post #7
cryoshon wrote: post #6

If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!" as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to the expansion of OPT. There is no S…

It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.

> It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over".

more offer+equal demand === lower salaries.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#27

Post by NhanH »

cryoshon wrote: post #19
LLWM wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.

The free market favors the wealth of corporations at the detriment of individual people. The tech companies would absolutely love it if they could get away with paying their workers as little as the developing countries do; decreasing wages results in increased profits, which are the only thing that matter to them. I don't see a reason why we have to abide by their greed when we have so much to lose and nothing to ga…

Your point is well taken, but that doesn't seems to be what the GP was saying.

You're essentially advocating to favors one set of people over another set of people. Which the line between two sets being drawn by luck.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#28

Post by bostonvaulter2 »

vj44 wrote: post #16
the_real_bto wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oftentimes, foreign citizens working in the US are not able to freely participate in the job market. If they can't freely move from job to job (as US workers can), then they will be paid less money. If they want to be in the US badly enough, this will still be their best option. Everyone wins except the local worker who is now competing with an indentured servant. [0] Indentured Servant is probably an exaggeration: b…

Most visas (in particular, the OPT in question and the H1B) allow very easy work-permit transfer to other employers. So the wage decrease won't apply here.

One of the issues with the H1B is that if the worker loses their job, they only have a month to find another one or face being deported.

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#29

Post by thisisdallas »

So who exactly is this helping? Ok, I know it helps out foreign students, but I am asking strictly from an American perspective. First and foremost, the governments job is to serve the American people. How does this specific action of Obama's immigration proposal help the American people as a whole?

It's a 100% possibility that I have this wrong but I see two groups who this helps. The first group is foreigners who live in the US and the second group is big businesses who can most likely hire lower wage workers.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for improving the STEM sectors in the US but I just feel like it might be a little more useful to invest in our own schools and our own workers instead of invest in foreigners living in the US. Can someone explain what I am missing or what I don't understand?

Re: Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

#30

Post by vilhelm_s »

cryoshon wrote: post #6

If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!" as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to the expansion of OPT. There is no S…

I feel your phrase "we here at HN" is a bit obnoxious. I'm in the US on a student visa in a STEM field, and would benefit from more more immigration options. I am as much a HN user as you are.
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